destiny vs free will

Originally posted by eatmybishop
i have no idea what relevance that plays in the discussion

God can do what can be done, if you have free will you choose, if
you don't it does not matter what you are asked to do, you will only
do what you are suppose to do. Can God give someone free will?
Answer, if He wants to.
Kelly

Originally posted by knightmeister
But does the fact that it was black mean that it could never have been red ?

It was black wasn't it? Please explain to me how it could have been red when we know that it was black? Can you change history? I don't think so.

Originally posted by twhitehead
It was black wasn't it? Please explain to me how it could have been red when we know that it was black? Can you change history? I don't think so.

Of course history cannot be changed , but you need to prove more than this.You see History is not the future. History has to happen before it can be known. You need to show that the fact that it WAS black means logically that it could never be red and that it was always predestined to be red. Timelines to me are not laid out "in advance" they are laid down in the present moment.

For example , the allies won WW2. History is there for all to see. What does this prove? Does it logically prove that Germany could never have won or that the allies were always destined to win. No it doesn't . It proves nothing either way. All we can say is that the Allies won and that the history of WW2 was being laid down in 1945. The events and actions of 1945 MAKE the history they are not made "in advance". However , God can know the outcome of 1945 because to him it's history just like it is for us. But it has always been history for him.

Now, free will objections work very well if we stick to standard newtonian concepts of time but if we embrace einstein then we can see that time can theoretically be twisted and is relative. It's much easier to imagine how God can know the future history of 1945 but have that information "in advance". He's not on our timeline.

Another way of looking at it is that when God makes a prophecy about the future , although to us it looks like it's "in advance" of the event , really to him he's just looking it up in a history book. He doesn't know what WILL happen he knows what DID happen. The fact that he knows what I DID infact choose (at that moment) does not prove that my choice was free or unfree.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Of course history cannot be changed , but you need to prove more than this.You see History is not the future. History has to happen before it can be known. You need to show that the fact that it WAS black means logically that it could never be red and that it was always predestined to be red. Timelines to me are not laid out "in advance" they are laid down in the present moment.

But there is only one timeline and in that timeline the result was, is and will be black. Not Red. It was predestined. The only other alternative is that there are an infinity of timelines infinitely connected to each other and we are in one of them (or many of them depending on your point of view.)

For example , the allies won WW2. History is there for all to see. What does this prove? Does it logically prove that Germany could never have won or that the allies were always destined to win. No it doesn't.
The issue here is view point. How can you honestly claim that in 1942 there existed two timelines, one with Gemany wining and one with germany loosing and then in 1945 one timeline vanished? The timeline either exists or it doesn't. But you are trying to view a whole timeline, future included from within the timeline. You know about the past (History) because information can flow from past to present. So you know the past is fixed. You do not know about the future because information does not flow backwards. But that mean there is no future? Also if information can flow backwards does that not mean that even the future is equally fixed. So does this not imply that if God (or anyone else for that matter) is capable of telling you anything about the future then the future is necessarily fixed and predestined?

Now, free will objections work very well if we stick to standard newtonian concepts of time but if we embrace einstein then we can see that time can theoretically be twisted and is relative. It's much easier to imagine how God can know the future history of 1945 but have that information "in advance". He's not on our timeline.
God isn't in one of einstiens timelines either. Bad luck there.

The fact that he knows what I DID infact choose (at that moment) does not prove that my choice was free or unfree.
I am not talking about free or unfree choices (we disagree on the definition anyway), the fact remains that you will make one choice and only one choice and that choice is known by God and thus must unnecessarily be the only choice you can make.

On the topic of Newton and Einstein you forgot to mention the interesting field of Quantum Theory. It is actually possible to change the past or predict the future in quantum theory depending on how you look at it. A light particle sets of from point A and take two routes to its destination, If you block one route, after it already left A, it will suddenly have only taken one route thus changing the past (or looked at another way it saw the future before setting off). If you do not block it, it proceeds to use both routes and actually interferes with itself at its destination. Weird but true.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But there is only one timeline and in that timeline the result was, is and will be black. Not Red. It was predestined. The only other alternative is that there are an infinity of timelines infinitely connected to each other and we are in one of them (or many of them depending on your point of view.)

[b]For example , the allies won WW2. History is there ...[text shortened]... o use both routes and actually interferes with itself at its destination. Weird but true.

QUOTE------------------------------------

But there is only one timeline and in that timeline the result was, is and will be black. Not Red. It was predestined.WHITEY

RESPONSE-----------------------------------

There is only one timeline but there is no predestination neccessary. The result was black that's all we know . Until the result becomes black it could be red. Up until the very last moment. The outcome is unsure. God has already watched it become black and not red but this was not neceessarily because it was on some predestined timeline. God is not thinking "the result is going to be black" he thinks "the result was black". How does the fact that the result was black mean it could never have been red? Explain.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But there is only one timeline and in that timeline the result was, is and will be black. Not Red. It was predestined. The only other alternative is that there are an infinity of timelines infinitely connected to each other and we are in one of them (or many of them depending on your point of view.)

[b]For example , the allies won WW2. History is there ...[text shortened]... o use both routes and actually interferes with itself at its destination. Weird but true.

QUOTE--------------------

the fact remains that you will make one choice and only one choice and that choice is known by God and thus must nnecessarily be the only choice you can make. WHITEY

RESPONSE-----------------------

You take for granted something that I do not. You are confusing perspectives here. God doesn't know what I WILL choose he knows what I HAVE CHOSEN. He's not looking along the timeline. For me the decision is yet to make and I am free to choose. I am setting my own timeline via choices. Because God has a different perspective he sees the whole timeline as I have set it in place. My perspective is different I am still free to choose and whatever I choose will be my past one day but until I get there it's not set. God has already got there BUT......AND THIS IS THE KEY.....his already is not the same as my already.....there is not one universal clock that you can appeal to . For me the future hasn't happened and in a very real sense the future hasn't actually happened yet. For God it has , but we mustn't mix up the two perspectives. The grand Newtonian universal clock does not apply.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Explain.

I did. Read my post again.

It may appear to all intents and purposes that red is still an option until the last moment, but the fact that you will choose black means there is no other option. The only way red could be said to ever have been an option is if the future is not fixed, but this necessarily requires that no information from the future can reach us and that external time lines such as you put your imaginary God in do not exist. If God can see the future, then the future is fixed. Calling it his past wont change that fact.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I did. Read my post again.

It may appear to all intents and purposes that red is still an option until the last moment, but the fact that you will choose black means there is no other option. The only way red could be said to ever have been an option is if the future is not fixed, but this necessarily requires that no information from the future can re ...[text shortened]... If God can see the future, then the future is fixed. Calling it his past wont change that fact.

QUOTE-----------

If God can see the future, then the future is fixed. Calling it his past wont change that fact. Whitey

RESPONSE----------------

Enlighten me. What is this thing you call "THE" future ? Surely you mean God can see OUR future , but to you this implies that he is looking into THE future (as if his future and ours are one and the same??) You consistently place him on a universal time line which you think is true for us and God as if there is some Newtonian giant clock to all of this.

I also fail to see how God seeing your future "fixes" it. Either the future is fixed or it isn't but you talk as if somehow by God gazing on it this fixes it like some super glue or something. Do you seriously think that if God closed his eyes that the future would unfix itself? Maybe if he got absent minded then you would get more choices? What is this strange relationship between God's knowledge and the future?

Originally posted by knightmeister
If you want simple answers then you might like to try kindergarten theology in the kiddies section...but back in the real world...

The "simple" answer is that God does not know the future until it is set as a timeline. He is omnipresent to all points in time. This means that what you are doing tomorrow he is there , just as he is there watching you thing other than God is not stuck on a timeline like us waiting or predicting things.

and how do you know this...? you talk as if you're an expert on the subject, the truth is you could study this your whole life and still know no more than a five year old... maybe god simply doesnt exist..! maybe it is that simple, we have free will because there is no future for a greater power to know

Originally posted by josephw
No.

yes it does, that would explain why you didnt go into an explanation of your answer

Originally posted by twhitehead
I did. Read my post again.

It may appear to all intents and purposes that red is still an option until the last moment, but the fact that you will choose black means there is no other option. The only way red could be said to ever have been an option is if the future is not fixed, but this necessarily requires that no information from the future can re ...[text shortened]... If God can see the future, then the future is fixed. Calling it his past wont change that fact.

QUOTE---------------

If God can see the future, then the future is fixed WHITEY

RESPONSE--------------------

But you can see the future too!! You can see the future outcome of WW2. You know what Hitler's future is. Tell me how this proves that Hitler had absolutely no choices available and that he was predestined to kill himself.

Does it prove conclusively that Hitler had no free will?

If you can show it proves this then you will have found a water tight proof that free will cannot exist because we already know the futures of so many people. Infact , you will have proved that free will is bunk (thereby solving centuries of philosophical debate) and after you collect your philosophy prize you can move on to destroy the whole of Christendom because free will is essential to moral accountability to God.

I know you are not going to be able to do this. So let's establish once and for all that knowing what Hitler will do in his future DOES NOT prove destiny or free will either way. The reason for this is that Hitler's future is your past. What is ahead of him is behind you. You already know what he did in that moment. Hitler is in his present moment (1945) making decisions that history records for you. it can't be changed now because it's happened . He did what he did.

From your perspective his future is fixed , but does this prove anything other than you are in a different timezone from him? From his perspective he has yet to fix the future and it might be because he can really choose or it might be because he is predestined. Just by knowing his future we cannot know either way. It does not prove he has no free will. If it did Christianity would have been philosophically crushed by now.

Now take it one step further and imagine you can move backwards in time without contaminating it. A wormhole opens and you can watch Hitler from a distance in 1943. However , you are not "in" 1943 , you have defied timelines and can stay out of 1943 because you have your own timezone and in a few "hours" you will be back in 2007 .

Now , the point is you would know what Hitler was about to do just as you have always known what he did do , BUT this would not prove or disprove free will either way because you don't know what Hitler will do "in advance" you ONLY know 1945 via the history laid down in 1945 that you know from 2007. You are not looking along Hitler's timeline into his future you are kind of looking sideways and backwards at his timeline.

The interesting thing about this is that it doesn't matter what Hitler does for you to know what he will do. This is because he will do something or other and whatever he does becomes your history in 2007. Hitler will only be able to lay down one timeline and that will be your past . You will know his future , but this tells us nothing about destiny or free will.

I hope this gives you some idea of what time might look like from God's perspective.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I did. Read my post again.

It may appear to all intents and purposes that red is still an option until the last moment, but the fact that you will choose black means there is no other option. The only way red could be said to ever have been an option is if the future is not fixed, but this necessarily requires that no information from the future can re ...[text shortened]... If God can see the future, then the future is fixed. Calling it his past wont change that fact.

QUOTE------------------

The only way red could be said to ever have been an option is if the future is not fixed, but this necessarily requires that no information from the future can reach us WHITEY

RESPONSE--------------------

AHHH but the question is what fixes the future? If the future is fixed by some predetermined force that puts a timeline in place which we have to walk along then you are right , but if the future is fixed by our moment by moment choices as we walk into the future then we are fixing the future as we go along. We are creating our own timeline.

Since time is just a dimension it's silly to suggest that God would not be omnipresent at all points in time as well as space.

So God is watching you right now fix this present moment in time as you read this , but there are millions of these present moments in your life. Your life is a series of present moments. But God is present at all of them. As long as you are free in any present moment to choose that's all you need for free will. There is a present moment that you will experience tomorrow , you are making a choice in that moment , God is watching you in that moment . You have to wait until tomorrow to make that choice , he just watches , like he watches all of your moments.

It's important to grasp that if you were to ask God what you will do tomorrow he might well say " I can't tell you what you will do , all I can tell you is what I am seeing you do"

Originally posted by knightmeister
QUOTE---------------

If God can see the future, then the future is fixed WHITEY

RESPONSE--------------------

But you can see the future too!! You can see the future outcome of WW2. You know what Hitler's future is. Tell me how this proves that Hitler had absolutely no choices available and that he was predestined to kill himself.

Does it p ...[text shortened]... ope this gives you some idea of what time might look like from God's perspective.

well it's lucky you're not a buddhist knight with that kind of thinking... they talk of no future or no past, only the present moment, they say nothing can exist out of that moment because everything that has ever happened did happen in the present moment, when you look back you are doing it in the present moment and when you look forward you are doing it in the present moment.. that could - maybe - explain a predictive future and free will could exist in the same plane because it's all happening NOW, it does contradict your opinion tho

Originally posted by knightmeister
" I can't tell you what you will do , all I can tell you is what I am seeing you do"

Read your own quote again slowly and you will see how silly it sounds. Maybe you meant "I cant tell you what to do."?
If God is omnipresent throughout spacetime then there is only one spacetime with one outcome for every choice (God has seen it after all) and therefore your choices are predestined. You cannot argue your way around that however hard you try.
The choices in such a scenario would still fit within my understanding of free will.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Read your own quote again slowly and you will see how silly it sounds. Maybe you meant "I cant tell you what to do."?
If God is omnipresent throughout spacetime then there is only one spacetime with one outcome for every choice (God has seen it after all) and therefore your choices are predestined. You cannot argue your way around that however hard you try.
The choices in such a scenario would still fit within my understanding of free will.

QUOTE-----

Read your own quote again slowly and you will see how silly it sounds. Maybe you meant "I cant tell you what to do."?
If God is omnipresent throughout spacetime then there is only one spacetime with one outcome for every choice (God has seen it after all) and therefore your choices are predestined. You cannot argue your way around that however hard you try.
The choices in such a scenario would still fit within my understanding of free will.

RESPONSE----

It does sound silly if you place God on our timeline . However , I have a question for you. You can see all of Hitler's timeline , you know exactly what he will do with his life.

1) How does this prove conclusively that Hitler's life was always predestined to be the way it was?

2) How does it prove that no alternate timeline could have potentially have existed?

According to you Hitler's life must be predestined because you can see all his timeline.....PROVE IT!