@sonship saidYes
We can establish from scripture that the soul refers to the physical, whereas the spirit is not.
With all due respect this would not be right.
And I gave the reasons above that the soul is not just the body.
Take the case of the prophet Samuel's immaterial part coming up out of Sheol.
The Scripture is emphatic, stating multiple times th ...[text shortened]... e you inquired of me?" (v.16)
Are you going to say the man brought up was not physically dead?
To contact the dead was forbidden to the Israelites under the law covenant, and even more so for a King over the chosen people that the Messiah was designated to arrive through.
That wasn't Samuel for the scriptures make it clear that dead is dead. Therefor it was a demonic imposter.
@sonship saidWe have already established from Ecclesiastes that there is no thought in death, so this whole idea of eternal torment is both not supported by the scriptures on one hand, and incompatible with the idea of a god whose main quality is love.
@medullah
The footnotes of the study bible I have are helpful - The Recovery Version.
And a book is opened which is a help by Robert Govett entitled Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades. I am not verbatim copying usually.
Are you seriously contending that God who was moved out of love tp create would torture somebody for eternity for not towing the line? This kind of stuff is typical of the nonsense that was imported into the Catholic faith which became a hotchpotch of pagan beliefs melted together.
A good example of this are the hats that bishops where in the shape of an open mouthed fish which dates back to Dagon.
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@sonship saidI will leave that as an exercise for the serious student.
@Kevin-Eleven
A short nice little song.
How was it related here to soul and spirit ?
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-Removed-Maybe I read different tabloids, but I thought FMF was a hidden Serpent of Light who only grudgingly came to accept his destiny, you were his pesky but encouraging sidekick, and Philokalia was FMF's lost twin who was brought up in a different tradition, which can only lead to forum tragedy.
@medullah
I think we're distracted from the OP of this thread on the spirit and the soul.
I take some responsibility for mentioning a book title which I think got you stirred
up to make this last comment.
We have already established from Ecclesiastes that there is no thought in death,
You know that Ecclesiastes is hardly the last word in the Bible.
It has its place. But it is not a final word of everything.
so this whole idea of eternal torment is both not supported by the scriptures on one hand, and incompatible with the idea of a god whose main quality is love.
You have two points here I would say both are wrong.
1.) "eternal punishment" (Matt. 25:46) is supported by scripture.
2.) And "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) does not tie His hands that He cannot eternally hate sin.
Are you seriously contending that God who was moved out of love tp create would torture somebody for eternity for not towing the line?
"Tow the line" I think is a flippant vernacular way to express it.
It suggests bigotry or pettiness where the issue is absolute truth.
Whether we like it or not out of the mouth of Jesus was that an eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.
"Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)
You are saying God is love and prepared no eternal punishment.
The Bible says God is love and that He prepared an eternal fire for the devil and
his angels. And the same loving mouth which spoke to most merciful, patient, longsuffering words of forgiveness and salvation ALSO spoke this:
" And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46)
The Person you most have to blame for the speaking about eternal punishment is the same Person who lived, manifested, spoke, taught the greatest words of love, forgiveness, redemption, and reconciliation.
The SAME Person, medullah.
The SAME mouth.
This kind of stuff is typical of the nonsense that was imported into the Catholic faith which became a hotchpotch of pagan beliefs melted together.
The blanket generalization will not stretch that far.
Did the RCC mix paganism with the Gospel? Yes.
Can we blame everything we don't like in the Gospel on this fact? No.
A good example of this are the hats that bishops where in the shape of an open mouthed fish which dates back to Dagon.
Can we blame everything we do not like in the New Testament on the corruption of the RCC? No.
Saying the Lord Jesus spoke "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" is not defending Babylonian religious garb adopted by the RCC.
It might be convenient to blame all we disbelieve on the "leavening" and corrupting of the RCC of the pure truth of the Gospel. But I cannot do this in good conscience.
And the abuse of a teaching does not always mean that there is NO truth to a teaching.
This is off the spirit and soul matter. But I think I am going to start a thread on Who Died On the Cross?. Maybe we can take it up there.
Back to the human spirit. What a marvelous "organ" God put in man - his human spirit.
The spirit of man is said to be the lamp of God illuminating all the inward parts to God. Now I do not believe the inward parts there are the kidneys, liver, stomach, and other internal physical organs. I think the Bible mean the human spirit sheds light from the conscience of man upon his motives, inclinations, choices, and other deeply intimate aspects of his soul.
"The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the innermost parts of the inner being." (Prov.20:27)
So we cannot truly know ourselves until our human spirit is bought back from its damaged and comatose state. Jesus coming into us brings our damaged spirit back to full living function. Then the lamp of the Lord can search and illuminate our inward parts. We can know ourselves in the light of God.
The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah to illumine man's inward parts of the heart and soul.
The regenerated spirit also gives man truest understanding.
"But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding." (Job 32:8)
When we pray we approach the exercise of our human spirit.
When we pray to God the spirit comes into use if we are turning our heart to God
as a Person.
And "the breath of the Almighty" can give us understanding of many things God needs us to understand.
When we receive the Lord Jesus Christ, Christ in His form as "life giving Spirit" unites with our human spirit and we are "one spirit" with the Lord Jesus.
We could say that one part of our being is mingled with Jesus Christ.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
Then we need to pray as Paul prayed for the saints, to be strengthened into that realm of being in touch with our regenerated, Christ indwelt, reborn spirit.
"That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man.
That Christ may make His home in your hearts by faith . . . " (Eph. 3:16,17)
We need to receive the Lord Jesus into our innermost being. Then we need to allow God the STRENGTHENED that bond, and strengthened us into that realm of the inner man.
As a result of God strengthening the bond between the mind and the born again spirit transformation takes place and Christ settles down more and more to "make His home in your heart".
By faith we take Him to be more and more to us. By faith we trust that Christ can be in us everything that we need. He is faithful. And in return gradually He makes His home in our personality.