1. Standard membersonship
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    11 Oct '18 18:032 edits
    Dive, we're going to discuss this a bit more.
    I intend to do so though in a way that constantly exalts Christ and edifies the believers.

    Your late comment to me:
    The quandary sonship is that your version of Jesus and Christianity has no credibility; it's the same quandary that KellyJay an the other hell-fire doctrine adherents find themselves in here. Trying to preach-your-preach to people who find your idea of 'god' to be a monstrous tyrant. Eternal suffering destroys the gospel don't do see that? The persecution you probably feel you get in here is not because of the gospel or the name of Jesus (which are the only legitimate causes of persecution from a spiritual perspective); no you get challenged because your version of it all is ghastly, it paints the eternally merciful Christ as a flame-throwing vindictive sadist.

    So you say you cannot see this.

    So be it.


    Are you saying I should be ashamed of believing the words of Jesus Christ ?

    Are you saying that I should be ashamed then of believing certain verses like Danuel 12:2 and Isaiah 66:22-24 and Second Thess. 1:8,9 ?
  2. Standard membersonship
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    11 Oct '18 18:17
    Trying to preach-your-preach to people who find your idea of 'god' to be a monstrous tyrant. Eternal suffering destroys the gospel don't do see that?


    These words of the apostle Paul then are wrong, innacurate, misrepresentative of the truth, and should be an embarressment to Bible students Dive? Explain why.

    " ... the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire,

    Rendering vengeance to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength when He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed ... " (2 Thess. 1:7b-10a)


    Explain to us WHY I should be ASHAMED of those words and distance myself from the thought of BELIEVING what they say.

    And I do not mean how I should be better spending my time yelling through the streets. I want you to explain why I should be ashamed to believe the Bible there.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    11 Oct '18 18:313 edits
    While we wait for Divegeester to formulate his rationale of why I should be ashamed of the Bible's words (or of a reasonable interpretation of those words) let me say this.

    I expect that I and every person coming to Christ will be eventuall thoroughly CONFORMED to the image of Christ.

    Conformed means I will see as He sees, feel as He feels, share in His attitude, taste, preferences. To be conformed to His image, I expect to have MY heart in full harmony with Christ's heart.

    What HE loves I expect to love.
    What HE hates I expect to hate.

    Here is where I know our destiny as believers is to be CONFORMED to Jesus Christ in our souls.
    "Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29)

    Divegeester, If I don't see something about God's judgment through the eyes of Christ today, I will eventually see them through His eyes once fully conformed to His image.

    Isn't that what Romans 8:29 indicates?
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    11 Oct '18 19:05
    @sonship said

    Are you saying I should be ashamed of believing the words of Jesus Christ ?
    [/b] ?
    Of course not, you are being silly now.
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    11 Oct '18 19:07
    @sonship said
    Explain to us WHY I should be ASHAMED of those words and distance myself from the thought of BELIEVING what they say.
    I didn't say you should be ashamed, you're making it up.
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    11 Oct '18 19:112 edits
    @sonship said
    While we wait for Divegeester to formulate his rationale
    I've been at work putting in an intensive office based shift which was book-ended each way by a 90 minute drive in and home again.

    How many people on the street have you spoken to today, have you been warning them of how the Jesus who loves them so much will personally torture them for eternity if they reject his love, which is vicariously transmitted by your non-existent street evangelism?
  7. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    11 Oct '18 19:15
    @divegeester said
    I've been at work putting in an intensive office based shift which book-ended by a 90 minute drive in and home again.

    How many people on the street have you spoken to today, have to been warning them of how the Jesus who loves them so much will personally torture them for eternity if they reject his love, which is vicariously transmitted by your non-existent street evangelism?
    And those Christians contemplating taking their own lives due to terminal health and ongoing suffering will also be delighted to hear that Jesus has made suicide obsolete.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    11 Oct '18 19:224 edits
    @divegeester

    Of course not, you are being silly now.


    Of course not. Okay then.

    Should I be ashamed of interpreting His words in, let's say, Matt. 25:41 and verse 46 of the same chapter?

    " ... Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (v.41)


    Compare with verse 46.

    "And they shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46)


    Should I be ASHAMED to logically interpret Christ's phrase "eternal fire" to also mean "eternal punishment"?

    If I should be ashamed to interpret the parallel this way, explain why I should be ashamed then. Or tell me that there is no REASON for me to be ashamed of this kind of interpretation of Christ's words there.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    11 Oct '18 19:294 edits
    @divegeester

    You didn't intend these words to be shaming words ? -

    Trying to preach-your-preach to people who find your idea of 'god' to be a monstrous tyrant. Eternal suffering destroys the gospel don't do see that? The persecution you probably feel you get in here is not because of the gospel or the name of Jesus (which are the only legitimate causes of persecution from a spiritual perspective);


    Sounds like shaming words to me - preaching a monsterous tyrant of a God.

    Furthermore your inquisition as to how many people I spoke to today on the street is also intended as a shaming device.

    Don't back peddle about your motives.

    Now, why is believing the "eternal fire" of Matt. 25:41 is equal to the "eternal punishment" of verse 46 a teaching of a monsterous tyrant God ?

    Are you saying that for God to prepare a judgment for the Devil and his angels and those who follow them is monsterously TYRANTICAL of God ?
  10. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    11 Oct '18 19:33
    @sonship said
    @divegeester

    You didn't intend these words to be shaming words ? -

    [quote] Trying to preach-your-preach to people who find your idea of 'god' to be a monstrous tyrant. Eternal suffering destroys the gospel don't do see that? The persecution you probably feel you get in here is not because of the gospel or the name of Jesus (which are the only legitimate causes of pers ...[text shortened]... judgment for the Devil and his angels and those who follow them is monsterously TYRANTICAL of God ?
    Are you ashamed about your flippant approach towards suicide?
  11. Standard memberchaney3
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    11 Oct '18 19:381 edit
    It seems that sonship is providing bible scripture to support a supposed eternal hell.

    Dive has said that he would discard the entire New Testament before believing those scriptures could actually be true.

    It's a simple matter of believing or refuting what the bible teaches about hell, eternal hell, lake of fire, etc.
  12. Standard membersonship
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    11 Oct '18 19:402 edits
    @Ghost-of-a-Duke

    Are you ashamed about your flippant approach towards suicide?


    Had I to do over again, I might choose my words a little differently. Maybe, I'd do more praying before hand.

    Now, if I am to be CONFORMED to the image of Christ as Romans 8:29 says, then it stands to reason that when not YET fully conformed to Him I might not see everything just as He does right now. Right?

    So if I share some feeling of the ghastly prospect of eternal damnation today, somewhat like Divegeester, this feeling would be temporary, wouldn't it?

    I mean, I don't expect God to change.
    I don't expect Jesus the Son of God to change.

    I do expect that I will be one day fully CONFORMED to the image of the Firstborn Son of God.

    Then what He hates, I expect I will hate in like manner.
    And what He loves, I expect I will fully love in like manner.

    Today there may be things that I don't like in the word of God ,,, BUT I BELIEVE them. See what I mean?
  13. Standard membersonship
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    11 Oct '18 19:511 edit
    @divegeester

    I've been at work putting in an intensive office based shift which was book-ended each way by a 90 minute drive in and home again.


    No problem. Just remember that when others may be off pre-occupied with something as well.


    How many people on the street have you spoken to today, have you been warning them of how the Jesus who loves them so much will personally torture them for eternity if they reject his love, which is vicariously transmitted by your non-existent street evangelism?


    You are now shifting the issue.

    You started with it is monsterous of God to inflict eternal punishment.

    Your enthusiasm for that point seems to have waned IN FAVOR of "Then WHY are you not warning everyone in the street today?"

    You're falling back onto an other argument about HOW BEST to spend my time. I'm going to hold you to your previous issue.

    This aspect of God (as if I taught about NO OTHER) renders God a MONSTROUS TYRANT.

    For the word of God to say "they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction ..." renders God BENEATH You as a "monstrous tyrant".

    Is that right ? The eternally judging God Almighty is a monstrous tyrant, an evil caricature of God in the Bible according to you.

    Right ?
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    11 Oct '18 20:03
    @sonship said
    @divegeester

    Of course not, you are being silly now.


    Of course not. Okay then.

    Should I be ashamed of interpreting His words in, let's say, Matt. 25:41 and verse 46 of the same chapter?

    " ... Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (v.41)


    C ...[text shortened]... that there is no REASON for me to be ashamed of this kind of interpretation of Christ's words there.
    Your beliefs are an affront to the gospel and a sleight on the mercifull natuer of Jesus Christ.

    Whether or not you feel ashamed is a matter for you.
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    11 Oct '18 20:03
    @sonship said
    @divegeester

    You didn't intend these words to be shaming words ? -

    [quote] Trying to preach-your-preach to people who find your idea of 'god' to be a monstrous tyrant. Eternal suffering destroys the gospel don't do see that? The persecution you probably feel you get in here is not because of the gospel or the name of Jesus (which are the only legitimate causes of pers ...[text shortened]... judgment for the Devil and his angels and those who follow them is monsterously TYRANTICAL of God ?
    I’m not back peddling on anything, I’m speaking forthrightly and from the heart.
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