1. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
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    22 Jun '12 15:06
    A while ago, the forum was discussing the Problem of Suffering [natural evils] and some theist posted an article denying that PoS was a problem at all. Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Tidal Waves and the like are all necessary for planetary maintenance, or so the argument ran. God could not be blamed if people chose to live in dangerous areas.

    But why not issue Divine Evacuation Notices? Send out a mass mailing warning people that there will be an earthquake in one week. Something like "your area will be down for maintenance on day X - we apologize for the inconvenience".

    Many people would not believe it, and not act on it - but enough people would remember it and be astonished when it actually happened. I can just see the headline now: "MYSTERIOUS MASS MAILING PREDICTS EARTHQUAKE IN HOUSTON". Word would spread around the country, and you can bet the next time there was such a mass mailing, more people would get the hell out of town.

    Some obvious precautions against pranksters must be taken by our Divine Warning Department. Simple solution: each letter has the Trinity watermark. It is Divinely designed and thus can't be faked by humans.
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    22 Jun '12 15:08
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    A while ago, the forum was discussing the Problem of Suffering [natural evils] and some theist posted an article denying that PoS was a problem at all. Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Tidal Waves and the like are all necessary for planetary maintenance, or so the argument ran. God could not be blamed if people chose to live in dangerous areas.

    But why not iss ...[text shortened]... etter has the Trinity watermark. It is Divinely designed and thus can't be faked by humans.
    They don't believe that everyone is going to die then the judgment so why
    would they believe this?
    Kelly
  3. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    22 Jun '12 15:14
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    They don't believe that everyone is going to die then the judgment so why
    would they believe this?
    Kelly
    Because this will actually have credible evidence to support it once people realize that the past notices were accurate predictions.
  4. Joined
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    22 Jun '12 15:18
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    They don't believe that everyone is going to die then the judgment so why
    would they believe this?
    Kelly
    EVIDENCE!


    It's the star trek (or star wars take your pick) argument.

    In star trek there are characters with powers like telepathy and telekinesis.

    If you are skeptical about beings with such powers you can ask them to prove it.

    And so the Vulcan can place his hands on your forehead and delve into your mind
    and not only read your thoughts and discover things you had never told them, or
    anyone, they can show you things they have experienced.

    In short they can prove that they have these powers.

    They don't need the moon to be in the right alignment and don't fob you off with it
    only works if you believe in it or my vibrational energies are off today.

    Similarly if you don't believe a Jedi has any powers the Jedi can just levitate you into
    the air and fly you around the room a few times.

    They can prove that they have these powers. You can test them.


    So in this example if god suddenly parted the clouds and said excuse me but there is
    due to be an earthquake of magnitude x on fault line y in this region in three days time
    please evacuate...
    And then in three days time an earthquake of magnitude x on fault line y happens then
    you have some reason for supposing that this guy in the sky might know what he's talking
    about.

    When he repeatedly does this and is spot on every time you can get more and more confident
    that this guy knows what he's talking about.


    This allows the development of TRUST and not FAITH that this guy in the sky is real and useful
    and worth paying attention to.



    This is exactly what your religion (and all other religions) has not got.

    You have no evidence, no usefulness, no testability, no falsifiability, no point.
  5. Cape Town
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    22 Jun '12 16:00
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Similarly if you don't believe a Jedi has any powers the Jedi can just levitate you into
    the air and fly you around the room a few times.

    They can prove that they have these powers. You can test them.
    Of course one must not make the error of then believing everything the Jedi claims to be capable of even though he has only proven one of his powers. Further he hasn't proven that his powers are powered by the force. They may have some other source that he is ignorant about or is lying about.
    I have had this problem in discussions with Karoly in that he has had some experiences that he attributes to aliens, but then starts to believe anything that anyone says about aliens, forgetting that what other people say is not necessarily backed up by his experiences however real they might have been.
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    22 Jun '12 19:00
    same could be said about a "God" figure
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    22 Jun '12 19:45
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Of course one must not make the error of then believing everything the Jedi claims to be capable of even though he has only proven one of his powers. Further he hasn't proven that his powers are powered by the force. They may have some other source that he is ignorant about or is lying about.
    I have had this problem in discussions with Karoly in that he ...[text shortened]... r people say is not necessarily backed up by his experiences however real they might have been.
    Yes of course.

    I was simplifying for effect.

    The point being that they can use these abilities and demonstrate them on demand which
    means you can readily test them.

    This is in contrast to the reaction you get any time you ask for a demonstration of or evidence
    for and a test you could do for any religious or other spiritual claim.


    In the case of Jedi, whatever their source of power is, it's evidently capable of being used in battle,
    which is a pretty good reliability test.

    The enemy is not going to wait for the moons to be aligned so you can use your magical powers to
    defeat them.
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    22 Jun '12 20:17
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    A while ago, the forum was discussing the Problem of Suffering [natural evils] and some theist posted an article denying that PoS was a problem at all. Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Tidal Waves and the like are all necessary for planetary maintenance, or so the argument ran. God could not be blamed if people chose to live in dangerous areas.

    But why not iss ...[text shortened]... etter has the Trinity watermark. It is Divinely designed and thus can't be faked by humans.
    PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT THERE WILL BE
    A FLOOD WHICH WILL COVER THE WHOLE WORLD
    KILLING EVERYONE AND WILL TAKE PLACE IN 120 DAYS.
    PLEASE TAKE EVERY PRECAUTION TO ENSURE THAT
    YOU AND YOUR LOVED ONES WILL BE SAFE

    SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE

    PS - THERE IS A GUY CALLED NOAH WHO
    EVERYONE THINK IS A LUNATIC,
    WHO MAY BE ABLE TO BE ASSIST.
  9. Cape Town
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    22 Jun '12 21:02
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    .... KILLING EVERYONE.....
    That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger. However, we cannot learn from the mistakes that kill us.
  10. Cape Town
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    22 Jun '12 21:12
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    The point being that they can use these abilities and demonstrate them on demand which
    means you can readily test them.
    And my point is that a theist faith is often at least partly based on some personal 'spiritual' experience they have had. The problem is that they take any such experience as evidence of far more than is actually justified by the experience.
    For example suppose you feel the loving presence of someone near you. This is not evidence that it is the God of the Bible. Yet a Christian will take it to be evidence of such and a Muslim may take it to be evidence of their religion etc. It is rather too easy to see one man fly around the room and then conclude that the whole of starwars must be true - or whatever mythology that man tries to sell you.
    Christians often cite Christ's miracles as evidence of his divinity or of the validity of his claims, yet this is not the case in the slightest. If Jesus feed five thousand with 2 fish, then all this proves is that he knew a way to feed five thousand with 2 fish. It doesn't prove that what else he tells you about God or heaven or anything else is valid.
  11. Joined
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    22 Jun '12 22:31
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    And my point is that a theist faith is often at least partly based on some personal 'spiritual' experience they have had. The problem is that they take any such experience as evidence of far more than is actually justified by the experience.
    For example suppose you feel the loving presence of someone near you. This is not evidence that it is the God of t ...[text shortened]... It doesn't prove that what else he tells you about God or heaven or anything else is valid.
    Yes and nobody on this site has been more strident than me in pointing out exactly the points you are making.

    I have talked at length about the difference between evidence FOR something and evidence not inconsistent
    with something.

    I have pointed out the inadequacies of the evidence given for god and why personal experience is the least
    convincing evidence possible even for the person who has the experience.

    I have made all these points and more at length many times.

    Why are you making them to me?


    I mean I don't disagree, but I was never suggesting anything that contradicted what you are saying.


    The claims I was talking about that the Vulcan's/Jedi having powers require vastly less evidence than a god
    because they are vastly less powerful.

    If a guy claims to have the power to magically levitate me (or anything else) and throw me across the room
    and then he does it, and can do it consistently on demand, that's fairly convincing evidence that he has that power.

    It doesn't tell you how or why, and I would want to do lots of controlled experiments to try to determine where and
    how he has that power and to make sure it isn't a con of some kind.

    But that's very different from trying to prove the existence of an omnipotent creator god.

    Even in the example I gave above about a giant figure in the sky parting the clouds and warning of impending natural
    disasters wouldn't qualify as evidence FOR an omnipotent god.

    And I was very clear that what this mysterious figure who predicted disasters would gain over time is TRUST based on
    their past consistency and accuracy. Not blind faith that they would always be right.



    You are quite correct with your example that the paltry 'miracles' of JC in the bible that they are no evidence of or for god
    or JC's divinity.
    However if the claim is more mundane, if the claim was that he had the power to feed 5000 people with two fish and he
    does it then that is fairly strong evidence that his claim has substance.
    It's extrapolating beyond that to divinity (or any further powers not yet evinced) where it goes wrong.

    (and of course in that case there is in reality no evidence that the event ever actually happened)
  12. Joined
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    22 Jun '12 22:34
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT THERE WILL BE
    A FLOOD WHICH WILL COVER THE WHOLE WORLD
    KILLING EVERYONE AND WILL TAKE PLACE IN 120 DAYS.
    PLEASE TAKE EVERY PRECAUTION TO ENSURE THAT
    YOU AND YOUR LOVED ONES WILL BE SAFE

    SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE

    PS - THERE IS A GUY CALLED NOAH WHO
    EVERYONE THINK IS A LUNATIC,
    WHO MAY BE ABLE TO BE ASSIST.
    Well first...

    As I understand the story god only bothered to tell one person/family.


    And second...

    IT NEVER HAPPENED!

    it's a fictional story.


    And third...

    The question in the op was why god can't give continuing advisory warnings about impending
    natural disasters. Which god evidently and undeniably does not do.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    23 Jun '12 02:24
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Well first...

    As I understand the story god only bothered to tell one person/family.


    And second...

    IT NEVER HAPPENED!

    it's a fictional story.


    And third...

    The question in the op was why god can't give continuing advisory warnings about impending
    natural disasters. Which god evidently and undeniably does not do.
    Well first ...

    You have no sense of humour.


    And second ...

    Do something about it.


    And third ...

    Get some help.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    23 Jun '12 03:58
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Because this will actually have credible evidence to support it once people realize that the past notices were accurate predictions.
    There were accurate predictions in the Holy Bible and there are still many people that do not believe them.
  15. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    23 Jun '12 04:29
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT THERE WILL BE
    A FLOOD WHICH WILL COVER THE WHOLE WORLD
    KILLING EVERYONE AND WILL TAKE PLACE IN 120 DAYS.
    PLEASE TAKE EVERY PRECAUTION TO ENSURE THAT
    YOU AND YOUR LOVED ONES WILL BE SAFE

    SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE

    PS - THERE IS A GUY CALLED NOAH WHO
    EVERYONE THINK IS A LUNATIC,
    WHO MAY BE ABLE TO BE ASSIST.
    *Void where prohibited. Offer not valid in all 7 continents. Offer limited to descendents of Noah. Offer limited to the first pair of species that apply. Special exceptions for some species may permit 7 pairs. See ark building grounds for details.
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