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04 Feb 20
@fmf saidMy character was indelibly imprinted (and not in a particularly good way) not by the divorce of my parents (when I was aged 12) but by the breakdown of their relationship when I was aged 7 and in the subsequent 'difficult' years before they finally separated.
'Divorce is not morally unsound in and of itself'.
Agree or disagree?
As to whether it is a "sin", that's a matter for those who believe that "sin" is real.
The notion of "sin" aside, the question is whether divorce is, in and of itself, immoral.
The divorce of my parents was a good thing (as harsh as that might sound) and the morally sound decision, in relation to the mental wellbeing of myself and my sister.
04 Feb 20
@fmf saidAgree. There are times when it is the most morally sound thing one can do (e.g., abuse cases).
'Divorce is not morally unsound in and of itself'.
Agree or disagree?
As to whether it is a "sin", that's a matter for those who believe that "sin" is real.
The notion of "sin" aside, the question is whether divorce is, in and of itself, immoral.
04 Feb 20
@BigDoggProblem
Jesus said there is only one situation that one can divorce their mate and that is when adultery is committed by the other.
Matthew 19:9, Jesus said: “Whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.”
Why is that? Jesus again said at Matt 19:4, 5 4 "that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?
One must realize the seriousness of marriage as it was Jehovah himself that started this arrangement with Adam & Eve and set down the rules for being married in the bible.
Most today do not take this arrangement seriously and view marriage as a throw away no big deal thing to do when the going gets a little tough.
First ones must include Jehovah into their marriages "everyday" and respect that law and as the Bible also says that husbands and wife's must love their mate as they love themselves.
If you always put the other mate first in all your dealings, both ways, it will last. And one must avoid all situations that can destroy a marriage such a pornography.
04 Feb 20
@galveston75 saidSo let me get this straight.
@BigDoggProblem
Jesus said there is only one situation that one can divorce their mate and that is when adultery is committed by the other.
Matthew 19:9, Jesus said: “Whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.”
Why is that? Jesus again said at Matt 19:4, 5 4 "that the one who created them from the begi ...[text shortened]... ays, it will last. And one must avoid all situations that can destroy a marriage such a pornography.
If a husband beats his wife, Jesus said she can't divorce him?
I'm thinking Jesus got that one wrong, if that is indeed what he thought.
04 Feb 20
2 edits
@bigdoggproblem saidThe question of divorce as it was ask of Jesus by the religious ruling class was relative to the context of the law of Moses concerning divorce. None of that is being covered by anything said in this thread thus far.
So let me get this straight.
If a husband beats his wife, Jesus said she can't divorce him?
I'm thinking Jesus got that one wrong, if that is indeed what he thought.
In my opinion, I believe Jesus would consider wife beating grounds for divorce.
You should read some of the reasons the hypocrites gave as being grounds for divorce in ancient Israel. For example: if the wife put too much salt on her husbands food or talked to another man in public, or said something negative about his parents. There are dozens. Some of the Pharisees had as many as twenty wives, but not at the same time as that would be against the law. Right?
04 Feb 20
@secondson saidHow do you square this personal opinion of yours and Matthew 19:9, where Jesus is reported to have said: “Whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.”
In my opinion, I believe Jesus would consider wife beating grounds for divorce.
@fmf saidYou would need to understand Moses' commandment regarding divorce if you expect to understand what Jesus is saying.
How do you square this personal opinion of yours and Matthew 19:9, where Jesus is reported to have said: “Whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.”
Deuteronomy 24:1-4
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
That's the crux of it. The bill of divorcement, within the context of that ancient civilization, was for the protection of women. Without a bill of divorcement a woman would be considered an adulteress if she married another. It also forbade a woman to remarry her former husband after she went out and married another if he should die or they are divorced.
What Jesus said squares with Deuteronomy.
All of the above notwithstanding I'm certain that Jesus would understand a woman divorcing a wife beater. Especially after exhausting all other means of ending the abuse.
05 Feb 20
@secondson saidWhat about Matthew 19:9? I am not asking you about Deuteronomy 24:1-4. I am asking you about Matthew 19:9
You would need to understand Moses' commandment regarding divorce if you expect to understand what Jesus is saying.
Deuteronomy 24:1-4
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her ou ...[text shortened]... nd a woman divorcing a wife beater. Especially after exhausting all other means of ending the abuse.
05 Feb 20
@secondson saidDo you believe that Jesus said this: “Whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.”?
I'm certain that Jesus would understand a woman divorcing a wife beater. Especially after exhausting all other means of ending the abuse.
05 Feb 20
@fmf saidNotice also in Jesus' quote that it is the husband that commits adultery if he divorces his wife except on the grounds of fornication. Jesus said that because the Jews were allowing divorce for any reason.
How do you square this personal opinion of yours and Matthew 19:9, where Jesus is reported to have said: “Whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.”
The upshot of the whole matter is made moot because in Israel, according to the law, a fornicator was stoned to death, so then the husband wouldn't need to divorce his wife anyway. He could then remarry and not be an adulterer.
The religious leaders had screwed up everything, and that's why they hated Jesus, because he called them out on their hypocrisy and they knew he was right. So they plotted to kill Him.
05 Feb 20
@secondson saidI understand that you are obviously contradicting Matthew 19:9.
You're obviously not understanding what I'm saying.
05 Feb 20
@secondson saidWell, this is exactly where I was going. Context matters. And I'm sure this wasn't the only time Jesus talked about the issue of divorce. I don't see how a follower of Jesus can formulate an entire moral position on an issue from just one passage.
The question of divorce as it was ask of Jesus by the religious ruling class was relative to the context of the law of Moses concerning divorce. None of that is being covered by anything said in this thread thus far.
In my opinion, I believe Jesus would consider wife beating grounds for divorce.
You should read some of the reasons the hypocrites gave as being grounds ...[text shortened]... isees had as many as twenty wives, but not at the same time as that would be against the law. Right?
Interestingly, the other reasons you listed highlight that the wife's general role at that time was that of a glorified servant. Things are much different now. Yet another reason why the old writings cannot be expected to completely apply to the new times.