Originally posted by Pawnokeyholeabout 27grammes worth.
Suppose, 100,000 years from now, a neuroscientist could shape the neurons in may brain gradually such that they changed from being in a regular human configuration to being in a regular canine configuration.
Suppose dogs don't have souls. Would I lose my soul in the process?
Alternatively, posting on this forum can make you think you had lost your soul....
Just so as to confuse some of you more.... and help others...
1- animals have souls and will be judged also.....
2- even the sun and moon and stars will be judged......
3- NOTHING that a man does can earn or buy his way into heaven. You simply have to accept that Jesus paid the price for your sins..and believe it...only then can you change your life and start living more for others and less for yourself.
4- Satan's greatest victory is in making the world believe he does not exist.
5- Just because you choose not to believe in God and His Son Jesus does not mean that you will not meet Him one day soon... real soon..!!🙂
Science magazine had an issue out recently dedicated to neurology. In there they talk about the relationship between the "soul" and "conscience." It seems to me that when most people talk about one they are also talking about the other.
Now one thing that was mentioned in this issue of Science is what they called the "mirror test" for conscience. Put an animal in front of a mirror. Does it recognize itself or does it think the reflection is some other creature. So far, 4 aniamls have passed the mirror test by showing that they recognize themselves. Those 4 animals are humans, chimpanzees, dolphins and elephants. Based on this test I am willing to say that members of those 4 species have "souls." Other animals do not have souls.
Originally posted by bvbDoes a blind person have a soul?
Science magazine had an issue out recently dedicated to neurology. In there they talk about the relationship between the "soul" and "conscience." It seems to me that when most people talk about one they are also talking about the other.
Now one thing that was mentioned in this issue of Science is what they called the "mirror test" for conscience. Put an anima ...[text shortened]... ng to say that members of those 4 species have "souls." Other animals do not have souls.
Originally posted by bvbThe Holy Word of God states that we "see through a mirror darkly". So the mirror test is a fallacy.
Science magazine had an issue out recently dedicated to neurology. In there they talk about the relationship between the "soul" and "conscience." It seems to me that when most people talk about one they are also talking about the other.
Now one thing that was mentioned in this issue of Science is what they called the "mirror test" for conscience. Put an anima ...[text shortened]... ng to say that members of those 4 species have "souls." Other animals do not have souls.
Originally posted by kirksey957I interpret that quote as referring to our inability to judge our own moral character. (i.e. only God can do that) I'm just trying to establish if some creatures have a state of self awareness that other creatures don't have.
The Holy Word of God states that we "see through a mirror darkly". So the mirror test is a fallacy.
Originally posted by bvbLet's look at dogs as I think I understand them better than most anima;s and get along better with them than most people. If you take a dog on a walk, you may come across another person walking. You will notice tht the dog shows more interest in this situation if the other person is walking a dog. The dog has some awareness that that thing on the other end of the leash is a dog.
I interpret that quote as referring to our inability to judge our own moral character. (i.e. only God can do that) I'm just trying to establish if some creatures have a state of self awareness that other creatures don't have.
With people, the sense of sight is the dominate input when checking someone out. With dogs , it is the sense of smell which is dominant. When I am around other dogs during the day or even if I have been in a home where another dog had been present, I will get a good going over by my dogs as soon as I walk in the door. So the mirror test may not be the best measure of awareness for all species. In some areas dogs are much more "aware" than people. You notice that in the tsunami, the animals headed to high ground long before the waves hit. Dogs trained properly can detect drugs, explosives, or even the upcoming onset of a seizure. Their awareness is just at a different level than ours.
Originally posted by kirksey957I think you are correct about the limitation of the mirror test. I mean if an animal has limited visual sense then it is not fair to say it has limited conscience just because it can't see the reflection. However, I think a dog does see well enough that this test isn't invalid for dogs.
Let's look at dogs as I think I understand them better than most anima;s and get along better with them than most people. If you take a dog on a walk, you may come across another person walking. You will notice tht the dog shows more interest in this situation if the other person is walking a dog. The dog has some awareness that that thing on the other ...[text shortened]... en the upcoming onset of a seizure. Their awareness is just at a different level than ours.
When I was a kid I remember putting my dog Barney in front of a mirror just to see what he would do. I had not heard of the "mirror test" back then. What my dog did was show recognition of his reflection. At first he sniffed then he barked at the reflection then he got bored and walked away. That shows some "awareness" but I don't think you can call it "self-awareness."
If you draw a white "X" on the forehead of an elephant and put a mirror in front of the elephant. It will use the mirror to guide its trunk to the X and try to rub the "X" off. This is like a human or chimp using a mirror to rub something off of its teeth. These examples show that the animal has an image of itself and the mirror is a reflection of that image. If you can show me a dog that does this then I will put dogs on the list too.🙂
Originally posted by bvbOK, I will draw an "X" on my dogs scrotum and see if he licks it off. I will get back with you.
I think you are correct about the limitation of the mirror test. I mean if an animal has limited visual sense then it is not fair to say it has limited conscience just because it can't see the reflection. However, I think a dog does see well enough that this test isn't invalid for dogs.
When I was a kid I remember putting my dog Barney in front of a mirror j ...[text shortened]... ge. If you can show me a dog that does this then I will put dogs on the list too.🙂
Originally posted by mosescapetownMake up your mind. Everyone gets judged but whatever they do is a waste of time ? Which one is it?
Just so as to confuse some of you more.... and help others...
1- animals have souls and will be judged also.....
2- even the sun and moon and stars will be judged......
3- NOTHING that a man does can earn or buy his way into heaven. You simply have to accept that Jesus paid the price for your sins..and believe it...only then can you change your li ...[text shortened]... God and His Son Jesus does not mean that you will not meet Him one day soon... real soon..!!🙂
Originally posted by NemesioThere is no Church teaching (definitive or otherwise) on the matter. However, both Augustine and Aquinas held that animals had souls like humans do except that those souls are not immortal as they were not rational.
Facinating. Is this a personal opinion or is this something upon which
the Church has commented?
If the latter, could you link to a document, essay, or lecture that
talks about this?
Nemesio
This view was echoed by JPG in a speech in 1990:
http://www.dreamshore.net/rococo/pope.html
There are even hints in the CCC that God may decide to revive plant and animal souls in heaven:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=53700