1. Tsandi
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    13 Oct '05 06:081 edit
    I mean where exactly do they go when they die,??? Ive heard stories of 8 virgins. Do women muslims go to heaven, or must they become lesbians and get it on with the other 8 virgins. etc.

    And this allah, or whatever, what's this being said about him and the Living God, Yahweh being one and the same, yet contradict about the Son. Whom one calls "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: Hear Him" and the other flatly denying that he is a son of god, and that he even died on the cross.

    and what's that crescent moon and their religion have to do with anything.
  2. Joined
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    13 Oct '05 09:21
    Originally posted by zombies
    I mean where exactly do they go when they die,??? Ive heard stories of 8 virgins. Do women muslims go to heaven, or must they become lesbians and get it on with the other 8 virgins. etc.

    And this allah, or whatever, what's this being said about him and the Living God, Yahweh being one and the same, yet contradict about the Son. Whom one calls "This is ...[text shortened]... ied on the cross.

    and what's that crescent moon and their religion have to do with anything.
    They go to Paradise: http://dying.about.com/cs/islammuslim/a/Views_Islam.htm

    As for Jesus, while they believe the Christians have made a small blunder about who he was, they still believe much of the same things about him: http://www.islamfortoday.com/jesus02.htm
  3. Standard memberHalitose
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    13 Oct '05 09:51
    Originally posted by echecero
    They go to Paradise: http://dying.about.com/cs/islammuslim/a/Views_Islam.htm

    As for Jesus, while they believe the Christians have made a small blunder about who he was, they still believe much of the same things about him: http://www.islamfortoday.com/jesus02.htm
    The crux lies on the divinity of Jesus, which Islam obviously disputes. I find very little middle ground between Islam and Christianity (except maybe Abraham).
  4. Standard memberHalitose
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    13 Oct '05 10:19
    Originally posted by zombies
    I mean where exactly do they go when they die,??? Ive heard stories of 8 virgins. Do women muslims go to heaven, or must they become lesbians and get it on with the other 8 virgins. etc.

    And this allah, or whatever, what's this being said about him and the Living God, Yahweh being one and the same, yet contradict about the Son. Whom one calls "This is ...[text shortened]... ied on the cross.

    and what's that crescent moon and their religion have to do with anything.
    Do women muslims go to heaven, or must they become lesbians and get it on with the other 8 virgins. etc.

    Most women go to hell.

    The Hadith, Bukhari vol. 1, no 28: The prophet [Muhammed] said, "I was shown the hell-fire, and the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful."

    The Hadith, Bukhari vol. 1, no 301: Allah's Apostle...said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you women...I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you."

    The Hadith, Bukhari vol. 2, no 161: The Prophet then said..."I saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of its inhabitants were women.

    This seems quite in keeping with this male chauvinistic religion.

    (*Halitose sets stopwatch for a PM fatwa*)
  5. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    13 Oct '05 10:271 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    [b]Do women muslims go to heaven, or must they become lesbians and get it on with the other 8 virgins. etc.

    Most women go to hell.

    The Hadith, Bukhari vol. 1, no 28: The prophet [Muhammed] said, "I was shown the hell-fire, and the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful."

    The Hadith, Bukhari vol. 1, no 301: Allah's Apostle.. ...[text shortened]... eping with this male chauvinistic religion.

    (*Halitose sets stopwatch for a PM fatwa*)[/b]
    If you want to discredit Islam you'll have to do better than quoting Hadith, which are merely sayings attributed to the Prophet (and various others).

    As for the misogyny, do you really want to get into another discussion about Paul & his wonderful views on women?

    This site isn't written in the best English but tries to explain why the Hadith you mention are red herrings in disguise:

    http://members.aol.com/masadi/hadith.htm

    You'll have to attack the Koran if you want to get anywhere with it.

    By the way the intolerance in your post is refreshing.
  6. Standard memberHalitose
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    13 Oct '05 10:331 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    If you want to discredit Islam you'll have to do better than quoting Hadith, which are merely sayings attributed to the Prophet (and various others).

    As for the misogyny, do you really want to get into another discussion about Paul & his wonderful views on women?
    If you want to discredit Islam you'll have to do better than quoting Hadith, which are merely sayings attributed to the Prophet (and various others).

    The Hadith: Since the formalization of Islam, this source of authority has been viewed as second only to the Qur'an. I'd be careful in discrediting it as having any impact or importance in Islam.

    As for the misogyny, do you really want to get into another discussion about Paul & his wonderful views on women?

    I don't believe I've had one on this forum, so I don't really mind. It definitely is nothing this extreme. Please just open another thread so it can be discussed in context without hijacking this one.
  7. Standard memberHalitose
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    13 Oct '05 10:501 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    If you want to discredit Islam you'll have to do better than quoting Hadith, which are merely sayings attributed to the Prophet (and various others).

    As for the misogyny, do you really want to get into another discussion about Paul & his wonderful views on women?

    This site isn't written in the best English but tries to explain why the Hadith y ...[text shortened]... n if you want to get anywhere with it.

    By the way the intolerance in your post is refreshing.
    By the way the intolerance in your post is refreshing.

    Please. What do you mean intolerant? I'm not condemning it, I'm not even preventing anyone from joining it. I'm just pointing out the accepted male chauvenistic ideology behind this great religion of peace, tolerance and learning.

    You'll have to attack the Koran if you want to get anywhere with it.

    I'm not attacking Islam, I'm just quoting the second most important book in their religion to give their perspective on women. As you said, these are considered (by muslims) as quotes of The Prophet.

    P.S. Your intolerance of my view is quite refreshing.
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    13 Oct '05 10:57
    Originally posted by Halitose
    You'll have to attack the Koran if you want to get anywhere with it.

    I'm not attacking Islam, I'm just quoting the second most important book in their religion to give their perspective on women. As you said, these are considered (by muslims) as quotes of The Prophet.
    You're attacking the people rather than the belief system (religion)--fine, no problem, but you should have made that clear. Islam probably has the same proportion of idiots to thinkers as any other religion. Someone should do a study.

    Islam has one holy book. The rest is literature.

    (Did you know that the Gospels are also considered Hadith?)
  9. Hamelin: RAT-free
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    13 Oct '05 10:59
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    If you want to discredit Islam you'll have to do better than quoting Hadith, which are merely sayings attributed to the Prophet (and various others).

    As for the misogyny, do you really want to get into another discussion about Paul & his wonderful views on women?

    This site isn't written in the best English but tries to explain why the Hadith y ...[text shortened]... n if you want to get anywhere with it.

    By the way the intolerance in your post is refreshing.
    Seeing you're the first guy to quickly defend Islam, how do you explain Mohammed (peace be upon him 🙄 ) consumating his marriage with Aisha who was aged 9?

    Lack of desert legislation against pedophilia? Don't be hot-blooded and call this intolerance or bigotry - I'm just reporting the great prophet's illustrious history...

    Let me catch up with the kicking and screaming later, bye for now 😉 Worms are sure to be crawling all over this post in a couple minutes...
  10. Standard memberHalitose
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    13 Oct '05 11:102 edits
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    You're attacking the people rather than the belief system (religion)--fine, no problem, but you should have made that clear. Islam probably has the same proportion of idiots to thinkers as any other religion. Someone should do a study.

    Islam has one holy book. The rest is literature.

    (Did you know that the Gospels are also considered Hadith?)
    Islam has one holy book. The rest is literature.

    Methinks you are wrong here...

    For a Western historian, the Hadith is simply historical sources; for the Muslim scholar, Hadith have a special status citing sura Al-A'raf 157:

    Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (Yusuf Ali translation)
    They take this and other Qur'anic verses to require Muslims to follow authentic hadith.

    The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider hadiths to be essential supplements to and clarifications of the Qur'an, Islam's holy book.

    In the matter of what is called fiqh, or Islamic jurisprudence, the Qur'an contains many rules for the behavior expected of Muslims. However, there are many matters of concern, both religious and practical, on which there are no specific Quranic rules. Muslims believe that they can look at the way of life, or sunnah, of Muhammad and his companions to discover what to imitate and what to avoid.
    In the matter of what is called tafsir, or exposition of the meaning of the Qur'an, Muslim scholars believe that it is useful to know how Muhammad or his companions explained the revelations, or upon what occasion Muhammad received them. Sometimes this will clarify a passage that otherwise seems obscure. Hadith is this source of Islamic history and biography.
    For the vast majority of devout Muslims, authentic hadith are also a source of religious inspiration.
    A very small proportion of the global Muslim poplulation, such as Rashad Khalifa's sect, advocate following the "Qur'an alone" and claim that hadiths are unnecessary to supplement a complete book, often arguing that hadiths lead believers away from submission to God by adding another source of law.

    You may gladly argue from Rashid Khalifa's perspective, but remember your views only reflect a minority in the Muslim world.

    You're attacking the people rather than the belief system (religion)--fine, no problem, but you should have made that clear.

    Since the majority of Muslims supplement the Qu'ran with the Hadith, I find this statement a little harsh.
  11. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    13 Oct '05 11:12
    Originally posted by RatX
    Seeing you're the first guy to quickly defend Islam, how do you explain Mohammed (peace be upon him 🙄 ) consumating his marriage with Aisha who was aged 9?
    Easy--it isn't mentioned in the Koran...ha ha ha...the (disputed) evidence for this alleged act is reported in various contradictory Hadiths...

    A quote for your entertainment:

    "Zakaria Ar-Razi, one of the greatest minds of the Islamic world, attacked religion in general and Islam in particular with a force unthinkable in this day. He wrote:

    “The prophets—these billy goats with long beards, cannot claim any intellectual or spiritual superiority. These billy goats pretend to come with a message from God, all the while exhausting themselves in spouting their lies, and imposing on the masses blind obedience to the "words of the master." The miracles of the prophets are impostures, based on trickery, or the stories regarding them are lies. The falseness of what all the prophets say is evident in the fact that they contradict one another: one affirms what the other denies, and yet each claims to be the sole depository of the truth; thus the New Testament contradicts the Torah, the Koran the New Testament. As for the Koran, it is but an assorted mixture of "absurd and inconsistent fables," which has ridiculously been judged inimitable, when, in fact, its language, style, and its much vaunted "eloquence" are far from being faultless. Custom, tradition, and intellectual laziness lead men to follow their religious leaders blindly. Religions have been the sole cause of the bloody wars that have ravaged mankind. Religions have also been resolutely hostile to philosophical speculation and to scientific research. The so-called holy scriptures are worthless and have done more harm than good, whereas the "writings of the ancients like Plato, Aristotle, Euclid, and Hippocrates have rendered much greater service to humanity."
  12. Standard memberHalitose
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    13 Oct '05 11:28
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Read the link I posted above. They supplement the holy book with literature. The majority of self-professed Christians also speak through their arseholes--what of it?
    Here's a quote from your link:

    Hadith are the various traditions contained in specific books, believed in by the majority of Muslims to be the sayings of the prophet Muhammed.

    Don't tell me the Hadith has no influence in Islam.
  13. Standard memberHalitose
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    13 Oct '05 11:47
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    You're attacking the people rather than the belief system (religion)--fine, no problem, but you should have made that clear. Islam probably has the same proportion of idiots to thinkers as any other religion. Someone should do a study.

    Islam has one holy book. The rest is literature.

    (Did you know that the Gospels are also considered Hadith?)
    Islam probably has the same proportion of idiots to thinkers as any other religion. Someone should do a study.

    If your view of a Muslim idiot is one who upholds the Hadith, you've got a big problem on your hands. I think the fatwa will be directed at you rather than me. 😀

    Btw, I think the proportion is severely higher for Islam, if those are your criteria for judging a religious idiot.
  14. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    13 Oct '05 12:00
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Don't tell me the Hadith has no influence in Islam.
    Considering what Islam actually means--"to submit, or surrender, to God"--no influence whatsoever.
  15. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    13 Oct '05 12:10
    Originally posted by Halitose
    If your view of a Muslim idiot is one who upholds the Hadith, you've got a big problem on your hands. I think the fatwa will be directed at you rather than me.
    Considering the mentality of the fatwa-scribbling billygoats, you're probably correct.

    Enough. Zombies' question has already been answered in echecero's link.
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