Do you know?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
You believe the soul exists but is independant of the body. I believe conciousness exists, but represents a hugely complex series of interations within the brain that have evolved over millions of years.

You have set these in opposition, though I am not sure you intended it.

I naturally believe that consciousness developed over millions of years
and is a product of chemical reactions, the complexity of which is likely
going to remain partially -- if not largely -- unmeasurable.

Nemesio

Originally posted by scottishinnz
It seems alot of this comes back to the definition of the conciousness. My definition is that conciousness represents the brain evolving to such an extent that it has the ability to construct a model of the world including itself.

And yours?

Personality, intelligence, that which makes us unique, to me consciousness is the soul, that perfect divine reflection of God.

Rocks can be explained by random, impersonal chemical reactions. Rocks can be produced in the laboratory, even diamonds. Consciousness is what sets us apart from rocks. Consciousness cannot be produced by mixing chemicals in a beaker.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Personality, intelligence, that which makes us unique, to me consciousness is the soul, that perfect divine reflection of God.

Rocks can be explained by random, impersonal chemical reactions. Rocks can be produced in the laboratory, even diamonds. Consciousness is what sets us apart from rocks. Consciousness cannot be produced by mixing chemicals in a beaker.

Consciousness does not, however, separate us from mammals or birds,
who have varying degrees of consciousness, ranging from rudimentary
to rather developed and measureable senses of self (e.g., apes, chimps,
dophins, whales, elephants, &c).

Do you believe that these demonstrably conscious entities have souls?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Consciousness does not, however, separate us from mammals or birds,
who have varying degrees of consciousness, ranging from rudimentary
to rather developed and measureable senses of self (e.g., apes, chimps,
dophins, whales, elephants, &c).

Do you believe that these demonstrably conscious entities have souls?

Nemesio

Yes.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Personality, intelligence, that which makes us unique, to me consciousness is the soul, that perfect divine reflection of God.

Rocks can be explained by random, impersonal chemical reactions. Rocks can be produced in the laboratory, even diamonds. Consciousness is what sets us apart from rocks. Consciousness cannot be produced by mixing chemicals in a beaker.

It's taken 5 billion years for evolution to crack conciousness. Give science the same time. If you'll note many, many of my previous posts I state that conciousness (as independant from the soul, which is a spiritual concept) is a horrendously complex thing. For all of history up until about 100 years ago humans did not posses the technology to fly. That doesn;t mean we'd never have that technology. Conciousness is a far more complex and intractible problem. It will take longer.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Yes.

And your proof? Don;t think it says that in the bible.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Yes.

Do you believe that it is a coincidence that birds and mammals
all have brains which are developed to a certain point, but fish
(say) which lack consciousness also lack development in precisely
the part of the brain which confers consciousness?

Nemesio

Originally posted by scottishinnz
And your proof? Don;t think it says that in the bible.

Try two verses down.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Evidence has to be sought after in order to be found. If a disease is plaguing people, the scientists don’t just give up because there is no evidence of a cure. They find the evidence and cure the disease.

Just because you are unwilling to find the proof for yourself does not mean that there isn’t any.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Try two verses down.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Evidence has to be sought after in order to be found. If a disease is plaguing people, the scientists don’t just give up because there is no evidence of a cure. They find the evidence and cure the disease.

Just because you are unwilling to find the proof for yourself does not mean that there isn’t any.

Stop side-stepping the issue.

Answer the question.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Do you believe that it is a coincidence that birds and mammals
all have brains which are developed to a certain point, but fish
(say) which lack consciousness also lack development in precisely
the part of the brain which confers consciousness?

Nemesio

Animals are not as evolved as people. This may be part of the reincarnation process, or it may be that God just created some souls to be less evolved. Who knows? I intend to ask God a great many questions when I meet him.

Edit I believe that fish are conscious and have souls as well.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Animals are not as evolved as people. This may be part of the reincarnation process, or it may be that God just created some souls to be less evolved. Who knows? I intend to ask God a great many questions when I meet him.

[b]Edit I believe that fish are conscious and have souls as well.[/b]

Do you believe that 1) frogs, 2) sea stars, 3) spiders, 4) jelly fish, 5) maple trees
have souls?

None of these have consciousness, I might add.

And, for those higher animals -- birds and mammals -- does their having souls
(albeit less evolved consciousness) entitle them to the full measure of respect
and consideration iterated in the Commandments (especially, Thou Shalt Not
Kill/Murder)?

Nemesio

edit: missed your edit. Fish do not demonstrate any of the hallmarks of
consciousness, in particular, the ability to recognize themselves in the world.
I'm reasonably sure that no major scientific outfit maintains that fish have
even a rudimentary consciousness, though I am willing to learn.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Animals are not as evolved as people. This may be part of the reincarnation process, or it may be that God just created some souls to be less evolved. Who knows? I intend to ask God a great many questions when I meet him.

[b]Edit I believe that fish are conscious and have souls as well.[/b]

"Animals are not as evolved as people"

Many animals have fantastic evoutionary adaptions that allow them to live in environments that we can't.

That's just the kind of snobby, eletist thinking that humans employ to justify how special we are, and how we can feel free to do anything we like.

Again, prove that animals are less evolved than humans. Just because they don;t have such a high cognitive ability, the ability to talk or opposable thumbs.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Do you believe that 1) frogs, 2) sea stars, 3) spiders, 4) jelly fish, 5) maple trees
have souls?

None of these have consciousness, I might add.

And, for those higher animals -- birds and mammals -- does their having souls
(albeit less evolved consciousness) entitle them to the full measure of respect
and consideration iterated in the Commandments ...[text shortened]... outfit maintains that fish have
even a rudimentary consciousness, though I am willing to learn.

Not that I am aware Nem. You know my credentials.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
"Animals are not as evolved as people"

Many animals have fantastic evoutionary adaptions that allow them to live in environments that we can't.

That's just the kind of snobby, eletist thinking that humans employ to justify how special we are, and how we can feel free to do anything we like.

Again, prove that animals are less evolved than hu ...[text shortened]... because they don;t have such a high cognitive ability, the ability to talk or opposable thumbs.

Many animals have fantastic evoutionary adaptions that allow them to live in environments that we can't.

These are physical adaptations. Nothing to do with consciousness.

That's just the kind of snobby, eletist thinking that humans employ to justify how special we are, and how we can feel free to do anything we like.

We are special. Not just humans as a species, but every individual. It’s snobby to say the least to claim to know everything there is to know about the human brain and body and to say that we have no souls. Also, I don’t think that we can “do anything” as you put it. We need to live in harmony with this planet.

Again, prove that animals are less evolved than humans. Just because they don;t have such a high cognitive ability, the ability to talk or opposable thumbs.

This is the proof. They don’t reason the way we do. Just because God gave fish fins and gills does not mean that their consciousness is as evolved as ours.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]Many animals have fantastic evoutionary adaptions that allow them to live in environments that we can't.

These are physical adaptations. Nothing to do with consciousness.

That's just the kind of snobby, eletist thinking that humans employ to justify how special we are, and how we can feel free to do anything we like.

We are ...[text shortened]... cause God gave fish fins and gills does not mean that their consciousness is as evolved as ours.[/b]

Isn;t conciousness just another adaptation? I'd say yes. There are a number of evolutionary biologists (who know more than me, a mere plant biochemist) who'd agree with this synopsis.

I have never claimed to know everything. I take great pride in realising just how little about the world I actually know. Would that we were all in the same position. I'm glad that you feel we should live in harmony with the planet though. Nice.

As I state above, I regard conciousness to simply be an adaptation. Probably, specifically against predation.

If conciousness is simply an adaptation, then it cannot count as proof that animals are less evolved than humans.