Originally posted by KellyJayWhat is reality other than what we believe it to be?
We live our lives in the beliefs we do have, and those beliefs paint
reality as we think it is, we could be wrong, but we act according to our
beliefs nonetheless. Reality is what it is; it does not change with our
beliefs.
Kelly
Originally posted by AThousandYoungYour claim to self evidency is what I'm attacking. You're using the belief that you are percieving to assure yourself you are a perceiver and that's backwards in the certainty game, you're presupposing that perception exists.
[b]By nature I meant merely to objectify self-being, not to give it any characteristics. Saying I exists as a starting point from whence to hold a claim to perception (or in Descartes' way; thought) is jumping the gun on the question of what one can know with certainty. You're using a characteristic of an undefined thing to assume its existence. ...[text shortened]... existence. The two are tied together, because in order to perceive there must be a perceiver.[/b]
I think we may be at loggerheads on this because of your use of the word perceive, I err towards bbarr's definition and I think you may be using it differently.
Originally posted by PhuzudakaWhat is objectively true? We know that human senses are easily deceived.
Reality is that which is objectively true whether we believe it or not.
E.g. you can believe that the world is flat, but that does not change the reality of the earth's shape.
Originally posted by PhuzudakaCertainly human senses are fallable. To give one small example:
What are human senses deceived from perceiving? Pray tell.
Are the senses of all humans deceived?
Stare at a waterfall as hard as you can for one minute, then stare at the rock wall next to it. The rock wall will appear to move. Is it moving, or do your eyes deceive you? Or what about magic eye books? Are the pictures really popping out of the page the way they appear to be? So, if human senses are fallable, do we really know that anything is objectively true?
Originally posted by whiteroseDid you know that you can actually walk up to the rock wall and feel it to make sure that it is not moving?
Certainly human senses are fallable. To give one small example:
Stare at a waterfall as hard as you can for one minute, then stare at the rock wall next to it. The rock wall will appear to move. Is it moving, or do your eyes deceive you? Or what about magic eye books? Are the pictures really popping out of the page the way they appear to be? So, if human senses are fallable, do we really know that anything is objectively true?
Originally posted by whiteroseReality is what it is, your beliefs, well they my hit it on the nail from
What is reality other than what we believe it to be?
time to time, but you may not too. Reality doesn't depend upon you
to be what it is, your perceptions, guesses, theories, whatever can
be off because you misunderstood something.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayIf reality doesn't depend on our subjectivity and is objective as you say, there should be some way of certifying what it is, that it has charactersitics, is measureable etc. Do you know of any way to do this?
Reality is what it is, your beliefs, well they my hit it on the nail from
time to time, but you may not too. Reality doesn't depend upon you
to be what it is, your perceptions, guesses, theories, whatever can
be off because you misunderstood something.
Kelly