1. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    17 May '07 07:35
    The only thing anyone knows for sure is that they exist and their perceptions exist. That's it. Nothing else is certain.

    Agree?
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 May '07 07:42
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The only thing anyone knows for sure is that they exist and their perceptions exist. That's it. Nothing else is certain.

    Agree?
    no
    Kelly
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    It takes faith to invade Iraq, hope to get out and love is the oil you find along the way.
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    17 May '07 08:10
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The only thing anyone knows for sure is that they exist and their perceptions exist. That's it. Nothing else is certain.

    Agree?
    Agreed. So long as 'they' does not include their body or anything physical about them. All you can say for absolute is that something (you) exists that is having thoughts and experiences. Nothing can be said for certain about the nature of that something.

    --- Penguin.
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    17 May '07 08:15
    Matter is infinitely small.
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    17 May '07 08:45
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The only thing anyone knows for sure is that they exist and their perceptions exist. That's it. Nothing else is certain.

    Agree?
    Why are you so sure that you exist?
  7. Standard membershavixmir
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    17 May '07 09:18
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The only thing anyone knows for sure is that they exist and their perceptions exist. That's it. Nothing else is certain.

    Agree?
    Yeah...I tried that whole line with the tax man.
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    17 May '07 09:59
    Love & hate both travel a remote far-away road.
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    17 May '07 10:24
    Originally posted by Penguin
    Agreed. So long as 'they' does not include their body or anything physical about them. All you can say for absolute is that something (you) exists that is having thoughts and experiences. Nothing can be said for certain about the nature of that something.

    --- Penguin.
    Is it correct to say that something non-physical like thought exists? Thought is made of information and information flow, so does all information exist? Does information have instances? does a thought you have today that you also had yesterday have only one existence or two?
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    17 May '07 10:462 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Is it correct to say that something non-physical like thought exists? Thought is made of information and information flow, so does all information exist? Does information have instances? does a thought you have today that you also had yesterday have only one existence or two?
    Quite possibly not. Is there a philosopher in the house?

    I was essentially that all you can say is "I think, therefore I am" but I cannot say what I am.

    I think you can say that thought exists. What you cannot say for sure is that anything physical exists. The entire 'physical' universe could just be simulated in some sort of software program for the benefit of my own conciousness (also part of the same software program).

    --- Penguin.
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    17 May '07 11:071 edit
    Originally posted by Penguin
    Quite possibly not. Is there a philosopher in the house?

    I was essentially that all you can say is "I think, therefore I am" but I cannot say [b]what
    I am.

    I think you can say that thought exists. What you cannot say for sure is that anything physical exists. The entire 'physical' universe could just be simulated in some sort of software pro ...[text shortened]... the benefit of my own conciousness (also part of the same software program).

    --- Penguin.[/b]
    So if a computer says "I think, therefore I am" then is it? Or must it actually think to do so? How does it know whether it is thinking or not? Is there a concrete definition of thought that can rule whether or not a pattern is complex enough to be able to declare that it exists?
    If you cant even be sure of anything other than "I am" then how do you know that you are thinking correctly and thus drawing the correct conclusion? Surely just by stating I am, you are sure that you are thinking, sure that you are thinking correctly and sure that you are capable of conceiving of a state of existence, thus you can be sure of more than just "I am".

    [edit]
    If thought can be said to exist then surely physical things also exist even if they are only simulations?
  12. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    17 May '07 11:141 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    no
    Kelly
    Please elaborate. What else do you know for certain?
  13. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    17 May '07 11:151 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Why are you so sure that you exist?
    It's self evident. "I" is defined as that which experiences.

    My version of Descartes' famous line is "I perceive, therefore I am".
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    17 May '07 11:30
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The only thing anyone knows for sure is that they exist and their perceptions exist. That's it. Nothing else is certain.

    Agree?
    If you jump out of a jetliner at an altitude of 10000m without a parachute you will injure yourself. I know that and a lot of other stuff for sure.
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    17 May '07 11:32
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    It's self evident. "I" is defined as that which experiences.

    My version of Descartes' famous line is "I perceive, therefore I am".
    If a computer program experiences something then does the program exist? What if the perception itself is being simulated?
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