1. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    27 May '06 16:54
    Well?
  2. Standard memberHalitose
    I stink, ergo I am
    On the rebound
    Joined
    14 Jul '05
    Moves
    4464
    27 May '06 16:57
    Originally posted by whodey
    Well?
    I guess that would qualify as a quality of omnipotence.
  3. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    27 May '06 17:09
    Originally posted by Halitose
    I guess that would qualify as a quality of omnipotence.
    Does it? Being omnipotent means being all powerfull. Having power is one thing, however, having a propensity to act a certain way and desire to use your power a certain way is another, no?
  4. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    27 May '06 18:31
    Originally posted by whodey
    Does it? Being omnipotent means being all powerfull. Having power is one thing, however, having a propensity to act a certain way and desire to use your power a certain way is another, no?
    Let me put it this way. God is incapable of sin, correct? This is a possible scenerio that I have come up with. He sees all and knows all and therefore has no desire therefore to sin because of its corrosive effects. It is much the same reason I have no desire to stick my head in a fan. When man fell he did not fully envision the road it would take him. This is because man is finite and must rely on the all seeing and all knowing God to direct his paths.
  5. Standard memberChurlant
    Ego-Trip in Progress
    Phoenix, AZ
    Joined
    05 Jan '06
    Moves
    8915
    27 May '06 18:42
    Originally posted by whodey
    Let me put it this way. God is incapable of sin, correct? This is a possible scenerio that I have come up with. He sees all and knows all and therefore has no desire therefore to sin because of its corrosive effects. It is much the same reason I have no desire to stick my head in a fan.
    Being "incapable" of sticking your head in a fan, and being "unwilling" to do so are extremely different concepts.

    God may be unwilling to sin, but if He were not capable of doing so, He would not be truly omnipotent.

    -JC
  6. The sky
    Joined
    05 Apr '05
    Moves
    10385
    27 May '06 18:54
    Originally posted by Churlant
    Being "incapable" of sticking your head in a fan, and being "unwilling" to do so are extremely different concepts.

    God may be unwilling to sin, but if He were not capable of doing so, He would not be truly omnipotent.

    -JC
    Besides, even if he couldn't choose between sinning and not sinning, there would still be a lot of possible choices. For example, he could have chosen not to create the world, or to create a completely different world. He could have chosen not to give humankind free will. He could have chosen not to create evil. Now that it's there, he could choose not to punish people for something he has created. Etc.
  7. Standard memberWheely
    Instant Buzz
    C#minor
    Joined
    28 Feb '05
    Moves
    16344
    27 May '06 19:05
    Originally posted by whodey
    Let me put it this way. God is incapable of sin, correct? This is a possible scenerio that I have come up with. He sees all and knows all and therefore has no desire therefore to sin because of its corrosive effects. It is much the same reason I have no desire to stick my head in a fan. When man fell he did not fully envision the road it would take him. ...[text shortened]... s because man is finite and must rely on the all seeing and all knowing God to direct his paths.
    God doesn't sin because he loaded the dice. HE decided what was a sin and what wasn't in the first place and I just bet he made all the things he liked doing OK and all those things he didn't a sin. Typical omnipotent being!!! They're all the same!!!
  8. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    27 May '06 19:352 edits
    Originally posted by Churlant
    Being "incapable" of sticking your head in a fan, and being "unwilling" to do so are extremely different concepts.

    God may be unwilling to sin, but if He were not capable of doing so, He would not be truly omnipotent.

    -JC
    True, however, if he has seen the future and knows he will not sin then is he still capable? Another possiblity is that these events have already happened because God is omnipotent to move forward and backward in time. Perhaps telling us he is incapable of sin is like giving us a history lesson in reverse.
  9. The sky
    Joined
    05 Apr '05
    Moves
    10385
    27 May '06 19:46
    Originally posted by whodey
    True, however, if he has seen the future and knows he will not sin then is he still capable? Another possiblity is that these events have already happened because God is omnipotent to move forward and backward in time. Perhaps telling us he is incapable of sin is like giving us a history lesson in reverse.
    Or maybe he has sinned or will do so, but decided not to tell us about it because it wouldn't fit the picture he wants us to have of him.
  10. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    27 May '06 19:53
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    Besides, even if he couldn't choose between sinning and not sinning, there would still be a lot of possible choices. For example, he could have chosen not to create the world, or to create a completely different world. He could have chosen not to give humankind free will. He could have chosen not to create evil. Now that it's there, he could choose not to punish people for something he has created. Etc.
    Did God create evil? To determain this, you would first have to define evil. From what I can assess from the Bible, evil stems from sinning and sinning is merely making a choice that is contrary to God's will. Evil is therefore nothing that has been created, but is merely a choice one makes. You could argue that God created them to sin or loaded the dice, so to speak. However, is this a logical assessment? Why would God go against his own perfect will and cause sin to come into the world which by its very definition defies that perfect will? You could also argue the reverse, however. You could argue that God could have made us in such a fashion that we were incapable of sinning. Where then would free will be? Is free will necessary? If you then had no free will, where would love be? After all, it says in scripture that God is love. Love demands a choice, does it not? Have you ever been in a relationship where someone tried to make them love you?
  11. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    27 May '06 19:55
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    Or maybe he has sinned or will do so, but decided not to tell us about it because it wouldn't fit the picture he wants us to have of him.
    That would be a lie and therefore a sin.
  12. The sky
    Joined
    05 Apr '05
    Moves
    10385
    27 May '06 20:14
    Originally posted by whodey
    That would be a lie and therefore a sin.
    Yes. So what? It would just be one more sin.
  13. The sky
    Joined
    05 Apr '05
    Moves
    10385
    27 May '06 20:18
    Originally posted by whodey
    Did God create evil? To determain this, you would first have to define evil. From what I can assess from the Bible, evil stems from sinning and sinning is merely making a choice that is contrary to God's will. Evil is therefore nothing that has been created, but is merely a choice one makes. You could argue that God created them to sin or loaded the dice, so to speak. However, is this a logical assessment?
    Yes. "Why would God go against his own perfect will and cause sin to come into the world which by its very definition defies that perfect will?" Why indeed?

    You could also argue the reverse, however. You could argue that God could have made us in such a fashion that we were incapable of sinning. Where then would free will be?

    Free will doesn't need to be about the choice between sinning and not sinning. See my post in the pudding thread. No wait, it was the ointment thread, I think.

    Is free will necessary? If you then had no free will, where would love be? After all, it says in scripture that God is love. Love demands a choice, does it not?

    Love doesn't demand a choice between sinning and not sinning.
  14. Standard memberHalitose
    I stink, ergo I am
    On the rebound
    Joined
    14 Jul '05
    Moves
    4464
    27 May '06 20:27
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    Yes. "Why would God go against his own perfect will and cause sin to come into the world which by its very definition defies that perfect will?" Why indeed?

    [b]You could also argue the reverse, however. You could argue that God could have made us in such a fashion that we were incapable of sinning. Where then would free will be?


    Free will doesn' ...[text shortened]... a choice, does it not?[/b]

    Love doesn't demand a choice between sinning and not sinning.[/b]
    Define love. What causes it?
  15. Standard memberHalitose
    I stink, ergo I am
    On the rebound
    Joined
    14 Jul '05
    Moves
    4464
    27 May '06 20:361 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Does it? Being omnipotent means being all powerfull. Having power is one thing, however, having a propensity to act a certain way and desire to use your power a certain way is another, no?
    I don't see how this would negate free will. Being all powerful, God is capable of doing everything -- which He obviously isn't (doing everything logically possible) -- ergo, He is exercising choice.
Back to Top