Does life have value?

Originally posted by apathist
They wouldn't. But if people value life then they would do so despite the absence of any intrinsic value.

If life had intrinsic value it would be valuable regardless of whether someone valued it or not.

Originally posted by apathist
They wouldn't. But if people value life then they would do so despite the absence of any intrinsic value.

Yes, so they could right be unless they are wrong!? 🙂

If value is only placed upon the eye of the beholder than why condemn anyone for doing
something wrong? If you think we should condemn others for what we think they did
wrong, and then we discover by our condemning someone for something means we are
now being condemned for our condemnation, is this an ever ending cycle? Is there line,
or a scale, that everyone is bound to? If not, are we then are we left with as long as can
get away with something, and it doesn't come back to us, we are free and clear?

If I don't value those I harm, I can do no wrong, I can do what I want to anyone.

If someone later on drags us all into a room with the ability to sort out every word we have
said, reveal ever deed we have ever done, so that nothing is left in secret...then it is all
revealed to everyone so all complaints are revealed, how many of us will be able to stand
in front of all creation with spotless hands?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, so they could right be unless they are wrong!?

I value life. But I could be wrong? You mean actually I may despise life?

Originally posted by KellyJay
If I don't value those I harm, I can do no wrong, I can do what I want to anyone.

True.

edit: true for you of course. But not intrinsically so. Your local community, for example, may largely disagree with you about whether your behavior was right or not.

People of religion have been killing others in the name of their gods since forever. Clearly they believe life has intrinsic value.

Originally posted by apathist
True.

edit: true for you of course. But not intrinsically so. Your local community, for example, may largely disagree with you about whether your behavior was right or not.

True for us all, if we are brought into a place where only truth is shown opinions will be set
aside for righteousness nothing else will matter. My community will all be there as all other
communities too, and if one has harmed another the truth of it all will be made plain, we will
be witnesses.

Originally posted by apathist
People of religion have been killing others in the name of their gods since forever. Clearly they believe life has intrinsic value.

Just goes to show you we are all with fault now doesn't it?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Just goes to show you we are all with fault now doesn't it?

No one is perfect.

Originally posted by KellyJay
True for us all, if we are brought into a place where only truth is shown opinions will be set aside for righteousness nothing else will matter. My community will all be there as all other communities too, and if one has harmed another the truth of it all will be made plain, we will be witnesses.

There are many problems with that view.

Just because the Christian God is so powerful that he can do what he wants with us, does not make his moral choices 'intrinsic' to us, any more than the fact that you can kill any child you want does not make your moral choice 'intrinsic' to that child.

And you seem to imply that we should stand down when our families (or anyone else) is being, you know, raped and tortured and killed.

And there are many religions. Yours in no better or worse than the others - all of them are merely mankind's views of the infinite and the afterlife, based on spiritual feelings and nothing else. Well, also based on the ancient myths and legends of their culture. Faith belief with no facts involved at all.

Just this minute ago I read a shirt that says you matter.

"You matter until you multiply yourself times the speed of light squared then you energy."

Originally posted by apathist
There are many problems with that view.

Just because the Christian God is so powerful that he can do what he [b]wants with us, does not make his moral choices 'intrinsic' to us, any more than the fact that you can kill any child you want does not make your moral choice 'intrinsic' to that child.

And you seem to imply that we should stand down wh ...[text shortened]... d on the ancient myths and legends of their culture. Faith belief with no facts involved at all.[/b]

Yes, the Christian God created the whole universe and everything in it, He holds it
together by the power of His Word. He watches each particle with His full attention at the
same time and how it relates to everything else, just as He sees the whole the same way.

There is none like Him.

So when He calls everyone in for judgment, and we are all laid bare for all things done
and said, and everyone sees everything, bull $hit will not be part of the process, only
truth.

Originally posted by apathist
No one is perfect.

That is right we all fall short.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, the Christian God created the whole universe and everything in it, He holds it
together by the power of His Word. He watches each particle with His full attention at the
same time and how it relates to everything else, just as He sees the whole the same way.

There is none like Him.

So when He calls everyone in for judgment, and we are all laid bar ...[text shortened]... one
and said, and everyone sees everything, bull $hit will not be part of the process, only
truth.

Yes, I understand that you are fanatic. Me, I study all the religions, and science and philosophy and history and culture, and immerse myself in nature - which exists without needing faith belief. I like my way better.

Originally posted by apathist
Yes, I understand that you are fanatic. Me, I study all the religions, and science and philosophy and history and culture, and immerse myself in nature - which exists without needing faith belief. I like my way better.

🙂 Well I'm sure if you didn't like your way better you'd change.
I of the opinion my likes and dislikes don't matter as much as what the truth is.
I can believe that there are bad evil things in reality that doesn't mean I approve of them,
or that there maybe religions that allow me to do things I know to be wrong, but just
because they are there, religion should be about truth, not my wants or desires.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Stripping away all religious connotations from the word, human life, to me, is 'miraculous'. [...]Does an atheist give more value to a mortal life than a theist?

Every human creates his or her own unique narrative and in so doing makes of life what they can, want to or have to.

Along the way, they find various ways of generating purpose, meaning, structure ~ and arriving at a state of self-awareness ~ as they author (and experience) their narrative, and interact with the narratives of others.

I see religion as being one of these "various ways" that people find. And this wondering, looking, finding thing is a capacity that defines us and our human nature. It's a means of creating or discovering perceived value, just as the pursuits of non-believers are.

What is interesting - and, I think, a little sad sometimes - is how often people who do all this [using the prism of their religion] are seemingly deprived of the ability to see value in the paths non-believers take, and make extravagant and absolutist ~ but basically speculative ~ claims about their own paths and the genre of their own narratives. Non-believers can behave in a similar way.

But, then again, the proclivity for this philosophical chauvinism is another attribute that defines our human nature.