Spirituality
14 Oct 05
15 Oct 05
Originally posted by invigorateYes. Many have observed that prayer can affect the hearts and motivations of those who pray. The request for prayer by the great secularist, Benjamin Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, was rooted in his observation that if religious folks pray together, they will become less contentious.
Has there been a scientific study?
15 Oct 05
Originally posted by KellyJayOf course any earnest prayer has a spiritual component, but there are certainly other components to prayer that sometimes have a greater magnitude than the spiritual. There is the concept of unity as when several people or a large group of people pray together. Such prayer can bolster confidence and defeat such dark emotions as lonliness without any actual intercession of the spiritual. (This sort of prayer is also seen in athletic teams praying before a big game--the players don't actually expect God to help them win; they pray in order to form solidarity.) There can also be prayer used as a sort of meditation, where "God" is almost metaphorical (I'm sure He doesn't mind) where opening yourself up to the infinite is a way of clearing your head of all unnecessary things, a purification of sorts. Another very similar prayer is a confession, looking God in the eye and laying it all out, sort of like a personal 12-step program for whatever is bothering you. Then of course there is the flat our asking for a favor prayer, which is tantamount to magic and has the very physical, materialistic element that goes along with magic.
Tell me about prayer that isn't spiritual, and I said it was if you
are asking.
Kelly
So there are a lot of uses for prayer, and many of them are not entirely spiritual but have very real, very human, and quite measureable elements.
16 Oct 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulYou know not what you speak of, therefore I forgive you, for you are ignorant...Where did I say I ask for "stuff"...I have plenty of "stuff", and besides, "stuff" cannot make one happy. I pray for my daily needs, others less fortunate than I, and whatever God wants me to accomplish. You are the one who mentioned "materialistic"...are you feeling guilty or something? Do you drive a Hummer? Silver spoon still stuck between your teeth? Did Dad send you to Berkley? What's wrong with being a proud American? I bet you, being American, know nothing about American History, so that may explain why you are the "anti-Proud American". I hava a solution: catch a one-way flight to Karachi, Pakistan....don't bring a Bible, though.....
So for you prayer is simply a way of asking God for stuff? Seems rather materialistic. But then you are a "Proud American," so maybe that fits.
16 Oct 05
Originally posted by chancremechanicWow. Do you jump to conclusions. Exactly what did I say to suggest that I was ignorant? Your own comment was a vague as they come, so I can certainly be forgiven for taking your words the wrong way. And American History has nothing to do with common American attitudes. That Hummer you mention is more closely related to that than caring for the needy. Tell me: are all proud Americans as easily angered as you, or is it a religious thing? Do you know what, I think I'll jump to a conclusion myself. I wouldn't be seen even taking a leak off the side of a Hummer, but I bet you drive a pick-up.
You know not what you speak of, therefore I forgive you, for you are ignorant...Where did I say I ask for "stuff"...I have plenty of "stuff", and besides, "stuff" cannot make one happy. I pray for my daily needs, others less fortunate than I, and whatever God wants me to accomplish. You are the one who mentioned "materialistic"...are you fe ...[text shortened]... ava a solution: catch a one-way flight to Karachi, Pakistan....don't bring a Bible, though.....
I am not "anti" anything, but I am always suspicious of pride, which if I recall my Sunday School lessons right is one of the deadly sins. Pride warps the mind more than anything, and it is often makes a great excuse to jump to conclusions about people you don't know. Pride leads to hate, hate of other countries, other people, other races, as your very heated and undeserved post brings to light woderfully. You know what? Life isn't a football game. There aren't different teams, with you sitting on the home bleachers waving your I Love USA pennet and hoping our guys crush those nasty people who dare take the field before us. We are all the same people. Change your stance to "Proud Earthling," and then maybe I will put away my fear of your pride. Yes, that's riight, I said fear.
16 Oct 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulI didn't jump to any conclusions, mister self-righteous. You assumed that I pray for "stuff" and insinuated my pride in my country makes me dangerous and that I drive a pick-up. So, I guess we are both prejudiced since I assumed you went to Berkley, but you threw the fisrt stick, so I responded. Hell yes I'm proud to be AMERICAN...what's your reason for hating this country or not being proud of being American. I am not angered, either, as I forgave you of your ignorance....Pride does not equal anger, despite whatever leftwing philosopher told you...I simply love my country and am proud of Her accomplishments despite Her many faults, and you are the one jumping to conclusions about pride leading to hate of other peoples...I live in SoCal, and attend a very multi-cultural medics course while serving my country, and as the class adjutant due to rank, I have my class say the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United Staes of America every morning. Do you have a problem with that?...they don't seem to. If you fear me because of these things, then I feel sorry for you as a man.
Wow. Do you jump to conclusions. Exactly what did I say to suggest that I was ignorant? Your own comment was a vague as they come, so I can certainly be forgiven for taking your words the wrong way. And American History has nothing to do with common American attitudes. That Hummer you mention is more closely related to that than caring for the need ...[text shortened]... hling," and then maybe I will put away my fear of your pride. Yes, that's riight, I said fear.
16 Oct 05
Originally posted by chancremechanicYou still sound angry to me. Perhaps it is just an agressive writing style, but don't be surprised when others think you are angry as well.
I didn't jump to any conclusions, mister self-righteous. You assumed that I pray for "stuff" and insinuated my pride in my country makes me dangerous and that I drive a pick-up. So, I guess we are both prejudiced since I assumed you went to Berkley, but you threw the fisrt stick, so I responded. Hell yes I'm proud to be AMERICAN...what's you ...[text shortened]... they don't seem to. If you fear me because of these things, then I feel sorry for you as a man.
I could not possibly fear you because of any of the details of your life becuase you only just told them to me. And your pride in your country does make you dangerous.
Please quote where I said that I hate our country. This is the kind of jumping to conclusions that makes you dangerous.
Please explain to me the difference between jumping to conclusions and assuming.
I do feel very lucky that I was born in a country with as many oppertunities as this one has. I feel even luckier that my special needs daughter was born here in a place where she has a better chance of getting the help she needs and I can't afford. Are there other countries where she could get the same help if she were born in them instead? Of course. Probably not Pakistan, though.
I cannot feel that this country is automatically better than countries that couldn't or wouldn't provide the help we need, though. I can feel pride in my beautiful daughter, I can feel pride in my belief that there is a God, I can feel pride that I finally figured out how to swing a golf club somewhat properly. I cannot feel pride in a country, though. Perhaps you can explain to me why I should. Tell me of the accomplishments that you claim I am so ignorant of. Tell me how the country is better than all the rest. Tell me how pride is a positive thing when connected to a distinct group of people. Please enlighten me.
Oh, by the way, do you drive a pick-up?
16 Oct 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulI drive a Honda Accord 4-door sedan. First of all, before I can answer any of your questions, I need to know how old you are, what part of the country you grew up in, etc... I just assumed that you dislike your country based on your posts to me, just as you assumed, I might add, that I am dangerous because I have pride in my country. Do you think we could have endured WW2 if our service people and the general populace didn't have some pride in their country?...could we have gone to the moon without some national pride?...could the US have become the great country that She is without some national pride? I'm not talking about the same type of pride that lead to Hitler, Tojo, and Mussolini; I'm talking about pride, and a humble pride at that, that lets others know that I love my country without shame and am not afraid to admit when She is wrong. For the record, I didn't agreee with the Iraq invasion, but since we are there, we need to finish the job. I did agree with the ousting of the Taliban from Afghanistan.....did you?? I am second-generation European and have spent many months there, so I know America isn't necessarily the best country to live in...there are places in Italy that I would rather live than the US. I have NEVER said that America is the best country to live in...please search the post archives if you don't believ me. I have, and will continue to, defended America every time She is bashed for some falsehood....I am glad that your daughter is well taken care of and that you can have pride in your belief in God.......there ain't much difference in assume and jumping to conclusions, except that one makes an ASS out of U and ME...that seems to be about where we are in our discussions.....so, I can't convince you to change your outlook and vice versa, so I'll just bid you peace and well-being....I hope your daughter overcomes her challenges and grows up to be a healthy and happy adult...
You still sound angry to me. Perhaps it is just an agressive writing style, but don't be surprised when others think you are angry as well.
I could not possibly fear you because of any of the details of your life becuase you only just told them to me. And your pride in your country does make you dangerous.
Please quote where I said that I hate ...[text shortened]... to a distinct group of people. Please enlighten me.
Oh, by the way, do you drive a pick-up?
16 Oct 05
Originally posted by KellyJayYou seem to be missing the point. Even if the spiritual is elusive, you don't have the measure it to measure its effects.
Show me the spiritual, measure it, weight it, graph out progress of
the spiritual, can you?
Science is blind to those types of things.
Kelly
In any case, you are talking very vaguely. What do you mean by "spiritual"? Could you give me a concrete example so I can explore whether or not it is measurable.
For example, I don't see, if you were careful enough to work out what you mant by saintlieness, why one couldn't measure saintliness. Not perfectly, of course, but tolerably well.
If one want to celebrate the vageuness of one's thoughts, of course, and refuse to clarify what it is one means, then it might be hard to measure that, But that's a fact about oneself, not reality.
16 Oct 05
Originally posted by lucifershammer150 patients. 6 groups. One control and 5 different treatment groups one of which was prayer.
No - which is why I chose one from a non-religious medical journal.
If you think the study lacks scientific rigour, then point out exactly how. Innuendos are not helpful.
From the report:
Differences in clinical outcomes between treatment groups were not statistically significant.
So all the other treatments worked just as well as prayer.
Note also that the control group did 25-30% worse than the other groups. In a group size of 30 that's not damning (pun). It's entirely possible that the random sampling resulted in more serious cases (only a couple would make the difference) in the control group.
Also note the article was published in 2001 and a followup study was mentioned. Can you find that one?