1. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    07 Mar '08 10:08
    Does everything spring from the immutable crash of the unstoppable
    force and the immovable object?
    Or are we stuck between a rock and a hard place?
  2. Joined
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    07 Mar '08 14:16
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Does everything spring from the immutable crash of the unstoppable
    force and the immovable object?
    Or are we stuck between a rock and a hard place?
    Science can explain anything in the Universe consistently without the aid of extra natural explanations.

    Questions like "why are we here, what's our purpose, or what created the Universe" are out of the scope of science.
  3. Felicific Forest
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    07 Mar '08 20:16
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Does everything spring from the immutable crash of the unstoppable
    force and the immovable object?
    Or are we stuck between a rock and a hard place?
    ENCYCLICAL LETTER
    FIDES ET RATIO
    OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
    JOHN PAUL II
    TO THE BISHOPS
    OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
    ON THE RELATIONSHIP
    BETWEEN FAITH AND REASON


    From the introduction:

    "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves."

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html
  4. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    07 Mar '08 23:04
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    ENCYCLICAL LETTER
    FIDES ET RATIO
    OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
    JOHN PAUL II
    TO THE BISHOPS
    OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
    ON THE RELATIONSHIP
    BETWEEN FAITH AND REASON


    From the introduction:

    "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the trut ...[text shortened]... va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html
    Thank you, you have restored my reason in faith.
  5. Standard memberagryson
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    07 Mar '08 23:271 edit
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Does everything spring from the immutable crash of the unstoppable
    force and the immovable object?
    Or are we stuck between a rock and a hard place?
    Science makes no comment on the supernatural nor any claims to be able to provide complete truth. Science seeks only to explain the natural world as well as humanly possible. The illusion that there is some competition between the two is from religion not being so honest about about its limitations.
    Case in point, the encyclical above claims that "faith" is as important a path to truth as reason, though this is in itself unreasonable. Anyone that can claim that unquestioning belief (the definition of faith) in anything is a tool for approaching truth is either deluded or trying to delude.
    Science approaches truths about the natural world, philosophy approaches truth in all other more intangible areas. Faith is the confusion between assumption and fact.

    Edit: I would also like to point out that I have reservations about this being in the Science forum given that science quite clearly has no dealings with the supernatural.
  6. Subscribersonhouse
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    08 Mar '08 04:01
    Originally posted by serigado
    Science can explain anything in the Universe consistently without the aid of extra natural explanations.

    Questions like "why are we here, what's our purpose, or what created the Universe" are out of the scope of science.
    What created the universe is a question intensely studied right now by scientists. Why we are here is not a question that demands religion, nor what is our purpose. Religion is the scurge of mankind not the saviour.
  7. Standard membernmdavidb
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    08 Mar '08 04:26
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    What created the universe is a question intensely studied right now by scientists. Why we are here is not a question that demands religion, nor what is our purpose. Religion is the scurge of mankind not the saviour.
    Rec'd!

    Dave
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    08 Mar '08 05:533 edits
    "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves."
    That's a truly idiotic comment.
    How can someone in a simple sentence make about 5-6 demagogic inferences? It almost sounds something true. Only someone like the pope might have been led to say that.
    I bet many feel sympathetic to that comment. Surely I'm not one of them.
  9. Felicific Forest
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    08 Mar '08 16:024 edits
    Originally posted by serigado
    That's a truly idiotic comment.
    How can someone in a simple sentence make about 5-6 demagogic inferences? It almost sounds something true. Only someone like the pope might have been led to say that.
    I bet many feel sympathetic to that comment. Surely I'm not one of them.
    Please keep in mind that "ratio"" (= "reason" ) has a wider horizon than merely "science".

    Have you read the encyclical ?
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    08 Mar '08 16:501 edit
    "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves."

    ...says someone who doesn't belive in Big Bang, and refers to the bible, the greatest scientific advisor of all authorities. 😕

    I say that religion is one thing, religion is totally another thing. Religion cannot ever be science, and science can never deal with religion.
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    08 Mar '08 21:41
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    What created the universe is a question intensely studied right now by scientists. Why we are here is not a question that demands religion, nor what is our purpose. Religion is the scurge of mankind not the saviour.
    You are absolutely right. Religion sucks! The saviour is a person. That person is Jesus Christ.
  12. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    09 Mar '08 13:23
    Originally posted by josephw
    You are absolutely right. Religion sucks! The saviour is a person. That person is Jesus Christ.
    That's really constructive josephw. Thank you for reminding us that
    Christians worship a man called Jesus. You can put your hand down now.

    Well, we've heard from the scientists who are quite emphatic that science
    not only does not need religion but is actually better off without it.

    Do we have any Christian's out there that are willing to defend their faith
    in light of it's usefulness in society? Or am I to expect another round of
    chanting?
  13. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    09 Mar '08 14:111 edit
    As a matter of historical fact, modern science has developed
    from an understanding of the world as God’s ordered Creation,
    with its own inherent rationality. The issue is whether it can continue
    with confidence when it has jettisoned all theological
    assumptions. Why does the world behave so regularly that science
    can generalise and make universal claims about the nature
    of physical reality? Why should it have such an inherent rationality
    that our minds can make sense of it? Why should even the
    highly abstract symbols of mathematics, the creation of human
    minds, appear to be able to express its working?
    Without an
    appeal to God, as the source and ground of reason, who has
    made the world in a rational manner, there appears little
    prospect for providing any external legitimation for science.
  14. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    09 Mar '08 14:121 edit
    Unless we take science at its own (sometimes over-confident)
    valuation, and do not indulge in any philosophical concerns
    about its rational basis, we must take seriously the fact
    that the belief in God, as Creator, has in the past provided a firm
    basis for scientific understanding. A desire to understand the
    works of the Creator has been a prime motivation for science.
    Science needed theism in the seventeenth century at the time of
    Newton and Boyle.
    The eighteenth century saw a growing belief
    that science can survive on its own. Contemporary attacks on
    the idea of ‘modern’ rationality suggest that without a legitimate
    base science will not go on flourishing5.

    Taken from the Faraday papers :
    http://www.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/faraday/resources/Faraday%20Papers/Faraday%20Paper%202%20Trigg_EN.pdf
  15. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    09 Mar '08 14:211 edit
    I would also like to ask how scientists deal with the contradiction between
    consideration of theoretical entities in areas such as quantum physics but
    are unable to reconcile this with their counterparts in religion?
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