Originally posted by twhiteheadThis may be your interpretation but it is not mine. Random factors would not play a part (aside from finding the wallet) . It can go either way . There might be a weighting that makes it harder to choose one over the other but it depends upon how hard I am prepared to try. There are reasons for both choices and both are available to me. There is nothing to force me one way or another. My will is caught between the two with two possible caused actions battling as it were for control. Both are possible so in a million scenarios who could say what outcomes may happen? Infact the human experience is that we don't always behave consistently in similar situations . Sometimes we act in full accord with our conscience other times we don't.
So essentially, if out of 1 million replays, you chose to keep the money 5 times it means that there is a 0.0005% chance that you will choose to take the money. That means that although your choice is largely caused there is also a random factor in your decision. In programming terms we would say:
"pick a random number between 1 and a million. If it is l ...[text shortened]... ng the track that took you down the bad road. It 'could' have been different but it wasn't.
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou clearly just do not understand what the word random means. You describe a situation where there is a random choice made and then say it is not random. If:
This may be your interpretation but it is not mine. Random factors would not play a part (aside from finding the wallet) . It can go either way . There might be a weighting that makes it harder to choose one over the other but it depends upon how hard I am prepared to try. There are reasons for both choices and both are available to me. There is nothin ...[text shortened]... similar situations . Sometimes we act in full accord with our conscience other times we don't.
1. the choice can go either way
2. the experiment is repeated and sometimes it goes one way and sometimes the other.
3. there is no way to predict which way it will go on any given repeat.
Then by definition it is random. Admit it and accept it, your understanding of free will is actually no different from mine, you just don't like it thats all.
Originally posted by twhitehead1. the choice can go either way
You clearly just do not understand what the word random means. You describe a situation where there is a random choice made and then say it is not random. If:
1. the choice can go either way
2. the experiment is repeated and sometimes it goes one way and sometimes the other.
3. there is no way to predict which way it will go on any given repeat.
Then ...[text shortened]... nderstanding of free will is actually no different from mine, you just don't like it thats all.
2. the experiment is repeated and sometimes it goes one way and sometimes the other.
3. there is no way to predict which way it will go on any given repeat.
WHITEY
Except that it's not an experiment with objects as such but with sentient beings placed in control of there own destiny. One might predict that a man may follow his own conscience and his own charactor but he may not choose to . An act of will is required to make that choice and it may be the harder or less obvious of the choices we can make. There is a reason for our choice and that reason is the reasoning for the choice itself. But it is US that makes the difference , we have to want that choice , and if we don't want it then we have to want to want it. We are the cause of our own choices but it's not in a way that is detached from any rationale because the rationale is there in the choice we choose.
For example , you could choose right now to really commit yourself to trying to know God . You could call out to him and choose that you are going to spend the rest of your life searching fervently and committedly for him. You could choose to say to yourself "right I'm gonna test this damn thing out , either God is going to be real or I'm gonna die trying to find him" You could choose to do this as an act of will and a conscious choice. If you really really did this honestly with all your heart I absolutely guarantee you that you would be in for a heck of a surprise. But right now you are choosing not to do this , why? Because it's your perogative. You have free will. But at any moment you could respond to Christ's call (seek and you will find) , it could happen but it doesn't because right now you are choosing not to. God can prompt and encourage but he won't force you.
Originally posted by knightmeisterAnd at the end of the day, you believe that the mechanism that drives whether or not I will make that choice is at its heart random and that is what you call 'free will'.
God can prompt and encourage but he won't force you.
I prefer to believe that my choice is based on sound reasoning and logic and the realization that your concept of God is **** and so I will not now and will not ever make a choice to go looking for this imaginary God unless my reasoning capacity is severely impaired or some new and convincing evidence comes to light (which would be in total conflict with most of my lifes experience to date).
Originally posted by twhiteheadso I will not now and will not ever make a choice to go looking for this imaginary God --whitey
And at the end of the day, you believe that the mechanism that drives whether or not I will make that choice is at its heart [b]random and that is what you call 'free will'.
I prefer to believe that my choice is based on sound reasoning and logic and the realization that your concept of God is **** and so I will not now and will not ever make a choic ...[text shortened]... ce comes to light (which would be in total conflict with most of my lifes experience to date).[/b]
..and that's my point. You "will" it not. You make an act of will . A voluntary choice . You are freely deciding to not explore the possibility that what you think is imaginary now might actually turn out to be much more real than you ever dared think. It's an act of free will on your part. You are deciding that your assumptions and ideas about God cannot be altered or challenged in anyway...and that's Ok ...God knows how stubborn we all can be...but it doesn't stop that choice from being there all the time. You are choosing not to seek and find out something that maybe you didn't know. Free will in action.
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou are yet to show that your idea of Christian free will (as was the title of this thread) is any different from my stated beliefs about what constitutes free will. You seem to have turned to preaching about your God instead.
..and that's my point. You "will" it not. You make an act of will . A voluntary choice . You are freely deciding to not explore the possibility that what you think is imaginary now might actually turn out to be much more real than you ever dared think. It's an act of free will on your part. You are deciding that your assumptions and ideas about God can ...[text shortened]... osing not to seek and find out something that maybe you didn't know. Free will in action.
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf you want to know what Christian free will is then you will need to get into the finer details of how God offers us choices. My intention is not to preach but to make you think. Free will is also an experience and not just a concept. I am attempting to illustrate this by making you aware of the conscious choice that you are currently making , namely that of freely choosing to not explore the possibility that your assumptions may be untrue about God and that God can be known in a radically different way. . I will admit to being interested in how you respond to this but I'm not that good at preaching really to be honest. The fact remains that a whole area of spiritual exploration is open to you at any moment but you are free choosing for it not to happen. I am trying to get you to understand this on an experiential level.
You are yet to show that your idea of Christian free will (as was the title of this thread) is any different from my stated beliefs about what constitutes free will. You seem to have turned to preaching about your God instead.
Originally posted by knightmeisterAgain, I will point out that not choosing is not always making a choice. I also find your claim that I am not aware of a conscious choice to be self contradictory.
If you want to know what Christian free will is then you will need to get into the finer details of how God offers us choices. My intention is not to preach but to make you think. Free will is also an experience and not just a concept. I am attempting to illustrate this by making you aware of the conscious choice that you are currently making , namely ...[text shortened]... osing for it not to happen. I am trying to get you to understand this on an experiential level.
Do you think that you are consciously making a choice not to explore the possibility that Buddhism is correct? What about the beliefs of a small tribe of aborigines in Australia?
Do you also believe that you are making the conscious choice not to explore the possibility that you can fly? Why not jump of a building?
I believe that my knowledge of the physical world is what stops me from jumping of buildings and not any "choice" that I make. Similarly my knowledge of the physical world stops me from "exploring the possibility" that your beliefs in God are correct.
In both cases it is evident to me that it would be harmful to me to try and a waste of time anyway as the likely hood of being able to fly or your Gods existence are so minuscule that it is simply not worth the risk.
Now I still don't see any connection to your attempts at explaining your concept of free will and I still don't see anything from you which shows that your concept of free will is fundamentally different from mine.
You have several times hinted that you think that our experience of free will choices indicates your view rather than mine but so far you have not progressed beyond vague hints.
Originally posted by twhiteheadDo you think that you are consciously making a choice not to explore the possibility that Buddhism is correct? What about the beliefs of a small tribe of aborigines in Australia? WHITEY
Again, I will point out that not choosing is not always making a choice. I also find your claim that I am not aware of a conscious choice to be self contradictory.
Do you think that you are consciously making a choice not to explore the possibility that Buddhism is correct? What about the beliefs of a small tribe of aborigines in Australia?
Do you also ...[text shortened]... ndicates your view rather than mine but so far you have not progressed beyond vague hints.
Yes , I do . I am consciously committing myself via faith to a particular set of beliefs that exclude the idea that Budhhism, for example, is the truth. I am making that choice daily as an expression of a lifetime of choices.
Originally posted by twhiteheadIn both cases it is evident to me that it would be harmful to me to try and a waste of time anyway as the likely hood of being able to fly or your Gods existence are so minuscule that it is simply not worth the risk. WHITEY
Again, I will point out that not choosing is not always making a choice. I also find your claim that I am not aware of a conscious choice to be self contradictory.
Do you think that you are consciously making a choice not to explore the possibility that Buddhism is correct? What about the beliefs of a small tribe of aborigines in Australia?
Do you also ...[text shortened]... ndicates your view rather than mine but so far you have not progressed beyond vague hints.
The risk of what? You only assume it would be harnful , you have no idea what you might be letting yourself in for though. The whole point of seeking something is that you accept that you may not have found it. The only way you could ever come to faith is by coming to realise something that you currently don't realise so there is little point in pretending that you already know waht would happen. Anyway what would you have to lose?
Originally posted by twhiteheadI believe that my knowledge of the physical world is what stops me from jumping of buildings and not any "choice" that I make. Similarly my knowledge of the physical world stops me from "exploring the possibility" that your beliefs in God are correct. WHITEY
Again, I will point out that not choosing is not always making a choice. I also find your claim that I am not aware of a conscious choice to be self contradictory.
Do you think that you are consciously making a choice not to explore the possibility that Buddhism is correct? What about the beliefs of a small tribe of aborigines in Australia?
Do you also ...[text shortened]... ndicates your view rather than mine but so far you have not progressed beyond vague hints.
But knowledge of God is not knowledge of the physical world is it? In any case you would not be exploring the possibility of the correctness of my beliefs , you would exploring the possibility of whether God has the ability to make himself known to you in a way that is convincing via his Holy spirit. Don't forget the whole proposition is not that one subscribes to an intellectual belief but that one realises that God is actually here.
Originally posted by knightmeisterAre you only assuming that jumping of a tall building would be harmful? Have you tried it to find out?
The risk of what? You only assume it would be harnful , you have no idea what you might be letting yourself in for though.
The whole point of seeking something is that you accept that you may not have found it. The only way you could ever come to faith is by coming to realise something that you currently don't realise so there is little point in pretending that you already know waht would happen.
So go jump off a building or you will never know whether you can fly or not.
Anyway what would you have to lose?
My sanity for a start and many other things too far too numerous to list here.
Also by participating in, and encouraging religion I would be going against my personal principles as I personally believe that the self-delusion that results from religion causes many problems in the world today and very few benefits. So even if I was not personally directly harmed or causing harm, by participating in religion I would be encouraging it and thus causing harm indirectly.
The interesting thing is that you are asking me to do something that you yourself have clearly stated that you have chosen not to do i.e. try believing in something that you do not already believe in such as Buddhism.
In fact, why don't you try out Atheism for a bit? You've got nothing to loose....
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Originally posted by twhiteheadIn fact, why don't you try out Atheism for a bit? You've got nothing to loose....
Are you only assuming that jumping of a tall building would be harmful? Have you tried it to find out?
[b]The whole point of seeking something is that you accept that you may not have found it. The only way you could ever come to faith is by coming to realise something that you currently don't realise so there is little point in pretending that you al ...[text shortened]... Buddhism.
In fact, why don't you try out Atheism for a bit? You've got nothing to loose....
RESPONSE
I'm choosing not to....freely.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadAlso by participating in, and encouraging religion I would be going against my personal principles as I personally believe that the self-delusion that results from religion causes many problems in the world today and very few benefits. So even if I was not personally directly harmed or causing harm, by participating in religion I would be encouraging it and thus causing harm indirectly-----whitey
Are you only assuming that jumping of a tall building would be harmful? Have you tried it to find out?
[b]The whole point of seeking something is that you accept that you may not have found it. The only way you could ever come to faith is by coming to realise something that you currently don't realise so there is little point in pretending that you al ...[text shortened]... Buddhism.
In fact, why don't you try out Atheism for a bit? You've got nothing to loose....
RESPONSE--
I did not talk about religion but your perception is that I am. This is part of your assumption about what knowing or finding God neccessarily entails. What Christ meant by seek and you will find (and by the way Christ was anything but 'religious' ) was the possibility of discovering the living God. The potential is there to find out something that is beyond all these assumptions , but you choose to believe that this cannot be known or found. This is what I mean by a choice that you are making as you move through life. Free will implies that there are potential possibilities that we either choose or don't choose. Hitler had within him the potential to be a painter but it was not realised because he chose not to co-operate with God to bring this out of him.
In any case no-one is suggesting that anyone should leap head first into anything , only that one dips a toe in the water.
The reason I am going down this road is that us having free will means that other possibilities and ways thinking are there available to us. Even as a christian it doesn't stop , God is always there saying "there's more round the corner if you would just walk this way".
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Originally posted by twhiteheadSo go jump off a building or you will never know whether you can fly or not. WHITEY
Are you only assuming that jumping of a tall building would be harmful? Have you tried it to find out?
[b]The whole point of seeking something is that you accept that you may not have found it. The only way you could ever come to faith is by coming to realise something that you currently don't realise so there is little point in pretending that you al ...[text shortened]... Buddhism.
In fact, why don't you try out Atheism for a bit? You've got nothing to loose....
A poor comparison since you do not know of anyone who has jumped off a building and flown , but you do know of people who have sought God and found him. You may believe that their experience is false but you cannot know empirically in the same way as you know about gravity and it's effects. Your belief that what they find is false is your choice . It's your perogative.