Originally posted by knightmeisterCall it what you like, I call it religion.
I did not talk about religion but your perception is that I am. This is part of your assumption about what knowing or finding God neccessarily entails. What Christ meant by seek and you will find (and by the way Christ was anything but 'religious' ) was the possibility of discovering the living God. The potential is there to find out something that is ...[text shortened]... t it was not realised because he chose not to co-operate with God to bring this out of him.
In any case no-one is suggesting that anyone should leap head first into anything , only that one dips a toe in the water.
There is no such thing as dipping your toe in the water when it comes to religion. Once you start to practice self deception there is no knowing where you will end up. Its like me saying "just one sniff on this cocaine thats all I'm asking".
Originally posted by knightmeisterNo, you are wrong. I do not know anyone that I know has sought God and found him. I also believe that I can know it just as empirically as I can know gravity and its effects. You are starting to sound like Kelly with his "if I don't believe it then its just belief. If I do believe it then it is fact."
A poor comparison since you do not know of anyone who has jumped off a building and flown , but you do know of people who have sought God and found him. You may believe that their experience is false but you cannot know empirically in the same way as you know about gravity and it's effects. Your belief that what they find is false is your choice . It's your perogative.
If I found you 20 people who had been abducted by aliens would you go with them to see if you can be abducted too?
Originally posted by twhiteheadBut you don't give a reason. I have given you my reasons why I wont try out your suggestion. Could it be that you just made a random choice?
In fact, why don't you try out Atheism for a bit? You've got nothing to loose....
Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm choosing not to....freely.
Originally posted by twhiteheadSounds like you don't trust yourself to know the difference between self deception and knowing something real so how do you know you are not already doing that? It's as if you feel that you could get sucked into it and actually start believing it might be true. But since you are so cynical and skeptical that sounds like an unlikely proposition. I mean how would that happen?
Call it what you like, I call it religion.
[b]In any case no-one is suggesting that anyone should leap head first into anything , only that one dips a toe in the water.
There is no such thing as dipping your toe in the water when it comes to religion. Once you start to practice self deception there is no knowing where you will end up. Its like me saying "just one sniff on this cocaine thats all I'm asking".[/b]
I agree that self deception is part of human nature but one could build that into the "dipping of the toe" into the water.
For example , one could say to God "look mate I'm highly skeptical about the whole thing and I'm not going to let myself be deceived by anything that isn't true or convincing. You have also got a lot of work to do to show me how religion can be looked at differently. But I will give you a 1% shot at it"
However , you will choose not to I guess. It's choice.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI do not know anyone that I know has sought God and found him. WHITEY
No, you are wrong. I do not know anyone that I know has sought God and found him. I also believe that I can know it just as empirically as I can know gravity and its effects. You are starting to sound like Kelly with his "if I don't believe it then its just belief. If I do believe it then it is fact."
If I found you 20 people who had been abducted by aliens would you go with them to see if you can be abducted too?
You are talking to many of them on this forum. In any case , your statement is illogical because if they did not feel they had found him then they would not believe would they? If you feel that if you went down this path that you might end up "deceiving yourself" that it was true then your experience would have to be convincing enough to you for you start believing (that , I presume is what you are worried about). The jury is out as to whether myself and others have or have not found God , but that fact remains that we are reporting we have. No-one has ever reported jumping off a building and flying.
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf I found you 20 people who had been abducted by aliens would you go with them to see if you can be abducted too? WHITEY
No, you are wrong. I do not know anyone that I know has sought God and found him. I also believe that I can know it just as empirically as I can know gravity and its effects. You are starting to sound like Kelly with his "if I don't believe it then its just belief. If I do believe it then it is fact."
If I found you 20 people who had been abducted by aliens would you go with them to see if you can be abducted too?
No . but I would consider their experiences very interesting and worthy of some thought and investigation and explanation. I would need to consider the possibility that they had been abducted in order to be able to dismiss it fairly.
Originally posted by twhiteheadCall it what you like, I call it religion. WHITEY
Call it what you like, I call it religion.
[b]In any case no-one is suggesting that anyone should leap head first into anything , only that one dips a toe in the water.
There is no such thing as dipping your toe in the water when it comes to religion. Once you start to practice self deception there is no knowing where you will end up. Its like me saying "just one sniff on this cocaine thats all I'm asking".[/b]
...and you are entirely free to do this and also free to dismiss without investigation the possibility that there may be more to it than that. It's your choice. You don't have to find out any more than you want to . You can hold fast to your belief system without opening it to challenge in any way. Like I said it's your perogative. It's all choice in a subtle way.
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Originally posted by knightmeisterBut one cannot talk to a God if you don't believe in him. I mean that makes no sense whatsoever. So what you are really asking is for me to delude myself 100% that he exists before talking to him. I don't see any 1% there. Before you jump off a building you must at least delude yourself that flying is possible.
For example , one could say to God "look mate I'm highly skeptical about the whole thing and I'm not going to let myself be deceived by anything that isn't true or convincing. You have also got a lot of work to do to show me how religion can be looked at differently. But I will give you a 1% shot at it"
However , you will choose not to I guess. It's choice.
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Originally posted by knightmeisterRead my claim again. I said that I do not believe that they have found God just as you do not believe that anyone has managed to fly by jumping off a building. Whether we can find people who believe that they can fly was never part of the equation.
You are talking to many of them on this forum.
No-one has ever reported jumping off a building and flying.
Not true and you know it.
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Originally posted by knightmeisterBut you would not attend a hypnosis class that they claim will convince you of the existence of aliens.
No . but I would consider their experiences very interesting and worthy of some thought and investigation and explanation. I would need to consider the possibility that they had been abducted in order to be able to dismiss it fairly.
[edit] and you are currently agnostic about aliens. (OR just unfair).
Originally posted by knightmeisterI have never said that I 'dismissed it without investigation'. But I am saying that the form of investigation that you are suggesting is not a wise method of investigation and one that I am not currently willing to risk trying as it amounts to self deception and carries the same risk as say 'investigating' cocaine via sampling it or say attending a Scientology workshop.
...and you are entirely free to do this and also free to dismiss without investigation the possibility that there may be more to it than that. It's your choice. You don't have to find out any more than you want to . You can hold fast to your belief system without opening it to challenge in any way. Like I said it's your perogative. It's all choice in a subtle way.
Originally posted by knightmeisterNow lets compare that with your original post:
But I will give you a 1% shot at it"
Originally posted by knightmeister
For example , you could choose right now to really commit yourself to trying to know God . You could call out to him and choose that you are going to spend the rest of your life searching fervently and committedly for him.
Originally posted by twhiteheadAnd that choice is still open to you but it is probably less realistic than the toe dipping choice. It doesn't matter whether one goes for the 1% option or the 90% (leap of faith) option. God will respond in proportion to how much you are prepared to put into it. Infact sometimes even more. When you go to the casino you decide how much you want to play around with , but if you only put one chip down don't expect the jackpot.
Now lets compare that with your original post:
Originally posted by knightmeister
[b]For example , you could choose right now to really commit yourself to trying to know God . You could call out to him and choose that you are going to spend the rest of your life searching fervently and committedly for him.[/b]