Dr Who and Columbus + free will

Originally posted by no1marauder
You are a mindless theist with no brain. Referring back to your other threads doesn't impress me; you've written the same garbage in numerous other threads. It remains illogical, self-contradictory nonsense with liberal doses of magic thrown in.

My self esteem is somehow still intact for I suspect that I am not brainless. Infact I am flattered by your insults because I know I've got under your skin and made some good points. You wouldn't be having a go at me if you didn't feel you needed to shut me up somehow.
I don't really expect you to be impressed. I 've had a hunch all along that you were someone who liked to pigeon hole all Theists as ridiculous idiots who believed in "magic" , that way you don't have to engage in proper debate or listen to anyone's argument.

The "magic" game you play is very clever because although you accuse me of leaving the argument , the result is that you end up departing from debate and hurling insults instead. You can't bear the thought of me having any kind of reasonable point on this. It's not enough for you to disagree with me and dispute what I am saying you want to ridicule and discredit it as well. The thought that there may be some people out there who are not brainless and have asked themselves the same sorts of questions you have , and are still believing Theists is probably too anxiety provoking for you?

So I'll start . You have some good and interesting points marauder , and I understand why you see things as contradictory. If you don't accept my argument I'll understand , that's fine. I do not think (or have said) that you are brainless. . Now please show me the same respect.

So try debating for a change my dear chap. Why , if God is eternal does that eliminate him from also being in time? And why , if God creates free will , can't he be both not knowing and knowing? And why can't a sphere be a circle and a sphere all at the same time as also being many circles?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
If you prove it to be true, and not merely your wild supposition, I might concede you have a point. Likewise, I exist in 4 dimensions and cannot break any of the rules of those 4 dimensions. Why should God be able to break the rules of the dimensions?

Fantastic ! This is the whole point. You are nearly there. God doesn't "break the rules" of any of the dimensions as such. God has the extra 5th dimension (eternity) so that means that from our dimensions (having one less) his 5th dimension makes little sense and it looks as if he is "breaking the rules".

Find the Dr Who (part 4) sphere+ circle thread. In this story you will see that the circle gets confounded by the sphere because to him the sphere is "breaking the rules" of dimensions. In reality all the sphere is doing is existing in the circle's 2 dimensions but also in one more dimension beyond. How can the sphere be a series of circles all at the same time , he's breaking all the "rules" ?. Of course we can logically see that the sphere isn't breaking any rules at all , he's just doing what spheres do. It's the circle's lack of that extra 3rd dimension that makes it look like rule breaking. 😉

This is what marauder calls "magic" , but if he stopped being so obsessed with trying to pigeon hole me and thought about it reasonably he would see that there definitely is a kind of logic to it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
My self esteem is somehow still intact for I suspect that I am not brainless. Infact I am flattered by your insults because I know I've got under your skin and made some good points. You wouldn't be having a go at me if you didn't feel you needed to shut me up somehow.
I don't really expect you to be impressed. I 've had a hunch all along that you ...[text shortened]... ere be a circle and a sphere all at the same time as also being many circles?

You don't have any reasonable points. When it gets to the point where your argument collapses logically you either A) Change the meaning of words to non-standard ones ("Fallacy of Equivocation"😉; and/or B) Conjure up something which is supposedly beyond human understanding at least so far as its attributes ("Magic"😉.

You flatter yourself; arrogance is a typical trait of smug, self-satisfied theists like yourself. I don't need "to shut you up"; you really aren't some dangerous Messiah about to overturn everybody's deepest beliefs - you're just some clown he can't really put together a logical argument so you have to resort to the tricks already mentioned.

Not all theists resort to the types of illogical tricks and handstands that you do; again you flatter yourself.

Your questions are the same crap you've been spewing for months. And they're idiotic: for example,

And why , if God creates free will , can't he be both not knowing and knowing?

God creating "free will" has nothing to do with him being "all knowing" but Him being omniscient (a trait Christians insist their God has) does. This has been pointed out to you numerous times. And your answer is to simply change the meaning of omniscient! How can anyone debate that? If I say the Earth isn't a triangle, and you say "Well, I define a triangle as any geometric shape, so the Earth IS a triangle!" I have no answer to that, though perhaps a trained therapist might. If you've ever read Alice Through the Looking Glass, you'll recognize this type of argument - it's used by Humpty Dumpty.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You don't have any reasonable points. When it gets to the point where your argument collapses logically you either A) Change the meaning of words to non-standard ones ("Fallacy of Equivocation"😉; and/or B) Conjure up something which is supposedly beyond human understanding at least so far as its attributes ("Magic"😉.

You flatter yourself; ar ...[text shortened]... s, you'll recognize this type of argument - it's used by Humpty Dumpty.

And we all know what happened to Humpty!

Originally posted by no1marauder
You don't have any reasonable points. When it gets to the point where your argument collapses logically you either A) Change the meaning of words to non-standard ones ("Fallacy of Equivocation"😉; and/or B) Conjure up something which is supposedly beyond human understanding at least so far as its attributes ("Magic"😉.

You flatter yourself; ar ...[text shortened]... s, you'll recognize this type of argument - it's used by Humpty Dumpty.

I don't need "to shut you up"; you really aren't some dangerous Messiah about to overturn everybody's deepest beliefs - you're just some clown he can't really put together a logical argument so you have to resort to the tricks already mentioned. MARAUDER

I am under no illusion that I might achieve anything other than a tiny shift in perceptions. I find your strong reactions curious. You seem to be intent on ridicule and I think it's because you have an emotional investment in seeing all theists in a certain way (brainless idiots).

Originally posted by no1marauder
You don't have any reasonable points. When it gets to the point where your argument collapses logically you either A) Change the meaning of words to non-standard ones ("Fallacy of Equivocation"😉; and/or B) Conjure up something which is supposedly beyond human understanding at least so far as its attributes ("Magic"😉.

You flatter yourself; ar ...[text shortened]... s, you'll recognize this type of argument - it's used by Humpty Dumpty.

And your answer is to simply change the meaning of omniscient! Marauder

I have pointed out to you that God does still know everything it's just that you think that the way he comes by his knowledge is important. If I said I knew every move of every game of chess ever played then would it matter if I knew them because I had watched every move or because I had predicted every move. I would still know.

If Gary Kasparov decided to play you at chess and said you could remove three of his pieces before he started AND he said that he deliberately did not want to know any of your previous games/openings would you say that Kasparov was no longer an outstanding player (assuming you beat him) and that Kasparov was a chess player who didn't prepare properly?

Originally posted by no1marauder
You don't have any reasonable points. When it gets to the point where your argument collapses logically you either A) Change the meaning of words to non-standard ones ("Fallacy of Equivocation"😉; and/or B) Conjure up something which is supposedly beyond human understanding at least so far as its attributes ("Magic"😉.

You flatter yourself; ar ...[text shortened]... s, you'll recognize this type of argument - it's used by Humpty Dumpty.

If I say the Earth isn't a triangle, and you say "Well, I define a triangle as any geometric shape, so the Earth IS a triangle!" I have no answer to that, though perhaps a trained therapist might. If you've ever read Alice Through the Looking Glass, you'll recognize this type of argument - it's used by Humpty Dumpty. MARAUDER

Tell me marauder , is the USA the world's military nuclear superpower?

If you say
a) yes , then I will say that you are talking rubbish. The USA allows all sorts of things to happen in the world and it's only used it's nukes twice. How can you say that it is a nuclear superpower? Where is it's power then? If anything the USA looks anything like a superpower in the middle east. Ah...but you might say ..."It could easily nuke the whole of the middle east to it's knees , it's just it doesn't want to."
Then I will say...
"magic!..you are changing the meaning of the word superpower so you can wriggle out of it. You can't do that ...supewrpower means superpower ...there is only one way of defining the word. If the USA doesn't act like a superpower then how can it be one...nonsense..magic....brainless...it doesn't matter how the USA exercises it's superpower status...it's still not a superpower and you know it...I mean what's all this stuff about USA being a superpower and not being one all at the same time...pah!..humbug..."

You see your analogy of the triangle doesn't work because I do think God is both omnipotent and omniscient just like I think the USA is the world's military superpower. A triangle is inanimate and has no choice but to be a triangle but God and the USA do have choices and that makes things more complex because we have to consider motives and reasoning.
If we claim that something is a firework and we set fire to it and it doesn't go off then we assume that either it isn't a firework or it is malfunctioning, but you can't apply this same reasoning to sentient beings or people , it's called a context error and you know it.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You don't have any reasonable points. When it gets to the point where your argument collapses logically you either A) Change the meaning of words to non-standard ones ("Fallacy of Equivocation"😉; and/or B) Conjure up something which is supposedly beyond human understanding at least so far as its attributes ("Magic"😉.

You flatter yourself; ar s, you'll recognize this type of argument - it's used by Humpty Dumpty.

And why , if God creates free will , can't he be both not knowing and knowing?


The point of me saying this was that God does allow us to live in a temporary bubble of time if you like where the possibility of free will and actions that cannot be determined are possible. He can both know and not know at the same time only because he can be in time and outside of time. In Jesus God is both present in our time and in the Father present in eternity. So when Jesus is suprised by the centurion's faith in the NT it is because he actually is suprised....however...Jesus constantly refers to his Father who "knows". You need a God in and out of time/ just like the sphere is both in and out of 2dimensions.

Now just because you seem unable to hold two apparently contradictory ideas together in your mind (eg that you can both love and hate someone in a relationship) doesn't give you the right to deem others logic as unsound.

If God allows this state of affairs to exist so that we may be free to make real decisions and not live like pre determined robots then that's fine by me . I'm not going to think he's not omniscient any more than I might think the USA not to be a superpower because it allows the Iraqis to vote. To me it actually makes him even more omniscient and wise because he knows he must set us free. He knows what your "god" could never know, that in order for us to know him he must become less than he is.....for a while that is.....

Originally posted by no1marauder
You don't have any reasonable points. When it gets to the point where your argument collapses logically you either A) Change the meaning of words to non-standard ones ("Fallacy of Equivocation"😉; and/or B) Conjure up something which is supposedly beyond human understanding at least so far as its attributes ("Magic"😉.

You flatter yourself; ar ...[text shortened]... s, you'll recognize this type of argument - it's used by Humpty Dumpty.

"You don't have any reasonable points. When it gets to the point where your argument collapses logically you either A) Change the meaning of words to non-standard ones ("Fallacy of Equivocation"MARAUDER

Are you so naive as to really , really think that all words have exactly the same interpretation and meaning to all people at all times? If you look up omniscience on wikepedia you will find more than one definition and an entire debate about what omniscience might actually mean when applied to God. Here's some more words that can only have "one" meaning and definition..

love
socialism
punishment
justice
wisdom
superpower
brainless (lol)
reasonable


Oh and by the way , if you are looking for examples of contradictory nonsense that can't possibly be...try this one.....light- it's neither a wave or a particle...it's both.....!! ITS MAGIC!!! 😕😞🙄😵😀😠