Dr Who and Columbus + free will

Originally posted by knightmeister
Your sense of the timeline seems to be more like a railway track that needs a line and points "ahead" of it and several "track options" in order to create options. My sense is more like an off road vehicle that leaves it's own tracks behind it but can forge it's own tracks as it goes and therefore doesn't need a track(or several tracks) laid out in front of it.

How many universes do you posit exist then?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
How many universes do you posit exist then?

I cannot be sure but if pushed I might well say only one.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Send me a bit of one of the three space dimensions and I will send you a piece of the time dimension. fair trade?
I never said that time was a three dimensional object. I said it was a dimension.

[b]Your idea that God only created "some" of the universe is trumped by the science my friend. The science says that everything in the universe existed at th ...[text shortened]... Who created the universe after going back in time then he would have predestined it.

"Send me a bit of one of the three space dimensions and I will send you a piece of the time dimension. fair trade?
I never said that time was a three dimensional object. I said it was a dimension."TWHITEHEAD

You miss the point. Time is a dimension just like any of the other 3 dimensions so I agree totally with you , they are simply ways of measuring things and describing the universe. A hour doesn't really exist any more than a centimetre exists so I could send neither to you because they are abstract concepts. However , it was YOU that said that God was creating "only some of the universe" when I suggested he didn't create timelines. I suggested this because I didn't think that time lines were actually made of anything but were abstract concepts.

Now , if I had suggested that God did not create carbon , hydrogen or energy or protons or some other ACTUAL thing in the universe which ACTUALLY exists then you would have been able to pick me up on it , but since we agree that dimensions are not real in the way carbon molecules are real then it's hard for God to leave time out of the universe if time itself is not made of anything.If there is something in the universe which God did not create then it had better exist and you seem to agree that a dimension does not exist.

So please stop talking about time and timelines as if they obviously exist like atoms exist . You cannot say God created "only some of the universe" if you cannot begin to say what time is made of. Ever read up on phenomenology?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Now , if I had suggested that God did not create carbon , hydrogen or energy or protons or some other ACTUAL thing in the universe which ACTUALLY exists then you would have been able to pick me up on it , but since we agree that dimensions are not real in the way carbon molecules are real then it's hard for God to leave time out of the universe if time ...[text shortened]... universe" if you cannot begin to say what time is made of. Ever read up on phenomenology?

Go back and re-read my posts. The universe as a whole includes all matter and energy measurable over 4 dimensions. If you take any specific point in time then you are only taking a cross section of the universe. It is equivalent to saying that God created a two dimensional plane but not anything in the third space dimension.
However when it comes to predetermination it is really irrelevant how or what he created as upon that upon the act of creation you have already claimed that he knew the full history of the universe. How he knew it is also irrelevant. If he knew the full history but still created it then he is responsible for the full history.
If you know that if you have a son he will commit murder then by having a son you are also responsible for that murder. It doesn't matter whether you used time travel or whatever to find out.

This thread has made this problem of determining free will too complicated. I do know one thing. I can decide to play 1. e4 or 1. d4, whatever I decide. Therefore, I have free will. You had to admit I had free will in my decision to play 1. e4or 1. d4.

If you think we really don't have free will, that we only think we do, I can not prove it. However, I know I can decide to do somthing or not do somthing, and that is all that matters to me.

Originally posted by eagleeye222001
This thread has made this problem of determining free will too complicated. I do know one thing. I can decide to play 1. e4 or 1. d4, whatever I decide. Therefore, I have free will. You had to admit I had free will in my decision to play 1. e4or 1. d4.

If you think we really don't have free will, that we only think we do, I can not prove it. H ...[text shortened]... ver, I know I can decide to do somthing or not do somthing, and that is all that matters to me.

Ah, but you've missed the point. If God knows what you will do before you do it, there is no free will. There is no other choice you could have made, no matter whether you think you have free will or not.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I cannot be sure but if pushed I might well say only one.

However, logically, your supposition requires all possible universes to exist, if God is to know all things in advance.

Originally posted by eagleeye222001
This thread has made this problem of determining free will too complicated. I do know one thing. I can decide to play 1. e4 or 1. d4, whatever I decide. Therefore, I have free will. You had to admit I had free will in my decision to play 1. e4or 1. d4.

If you think we really don't have free will, that we only think we do, I can not prove it. H ...[text shortened]... ver, I know I can decide to do somthing or not do somthing, and that is all that matters to me.

If God knew your move at the time he created you and the move looses the game then God created a looser.

Also, are you able to play 1. e5 ?

[edit] And why couldn't God come up with a game where both players win?

Wow, a very interesting thread in a while now. I think the story in the opening post might even qualify for a new movie. No, seriously! Very good arguments by both twhitehead and scott, so I'll just sit back an enjoy the read.

Oh by the way, twhitehead, God DID make chess with no losers. Kramnik and Topalov played recently. In the end, one of them got a lot of money; and the other got a little bit more. As far as I am concerned, both were winners... hehehe.

OK, proceed with the debate, please!

Originally posted by twhitehead
Go back and re-read my posts. The universe as a whole includes all matter and energy measurable over 4 dimensions. If you take any specific point in time then you are only taking a cross section of the universe. It is equivalent to saying that God created a two dimensional plane but not anything in the third space dimension.
However when it comes to pred ...[text shortened]... nsible for that murder. It doesn't matter whether you used time travel or whatever to find out.

"If you know that if you have a son he will commit murder then by having a son you are also responsible for that murder. It doesn't matter whether you used time travel or whatever to find out."TWHITEHEAD

The penny is still waiting to drop isn't it.

You do NOT know that your son will commit murder IF you have him because UNTIL you have a son you don't know that he will commit murder. It matters a great deal HOW you know because with predestination you are saying "If I do this then this will definitely happen because it HAS to happen but it hasn't yet" BUT with time travel you are saying " I have done this and now that I have done this I now know what will happen because it HAS happened , I can go and have a look at it and I can also take this information back with me into the past to a time before I did it "

Let me state it this way--- Time travel = YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT YOUR SON IS GOING TO DO UNLESS HE ACTUALLY DOES IT , IF HE DOESN'T DO IT YOU WON'T KNOW A THING (nb- the point in time at which he does it is irrelevant because you can travel anywhere in time)

Pre- destination = YOU CAN KNOW WHAT YOUR SON IS GOING TO EVEN IF HE HASN'T DONE IT YET OR DOESN'T EXIST , THEREFORE IT MUST BE PREDESTINED

How you find out about the murder is entirely relevant because like doctor Who , he only knows that Columbus will sail the ocean blue because he already has. Thus HIS KNOWING DEPENDS ON COLUMBUS' DECISION RATHER THAN COLUMBUS' DECISION BEING CAUSED BY HIS KNOWING

Originally posted by scottishinnz
However, logically, your supposition requires all possible universes to exist, if God is to know all things in advance.

But I don't think God knows all things "in advance" because the term "in advance" implies he is moving on the same timeline as the universe. I think he knows all things "afterwards" but he can have that knowledge outside of your timeline. He doesn't need "all possible uinverses" because he's not trying to predict what you will do tomorrow he's there right now watching you do it , BUT he 's also here right now with you watching you read this sentence, the connundrum is that he is doing this simultaneously whilst at the same time watching you being born. He doesn't have to predict anything , he just watches you. Whatever the universe does he will know because he's already seen it.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Ah, but you've missed the point. If God knows what you will do before you do it, there is no free will. There is no other choice you could have made, no matter whether you think you have free will or not.

Wrong again!!! God knows what you will do because to him you have already done it. It's extra dimensions you need to think about not time trapped predictions. If God was trapped in time your position on this would be unanswerable , but you and I both know that's not the eternal God most theists actaully believe in . Thus you have refuted a god of your own making ! 😀

Originally posted by knightmeister
Wrong again!!! God knows what you will do because to him you have already done it. It's extra dimensions you need to think about not time trapped predictions. If God was trapped in time your position on this would be unanswerable , but you and I both know that's not the eternal God most theists actaully believe in . Thus you have refuted a god of your own making ! 😀

And if GOD knows what you will do why does this mean you don't have a free will even if he in your time line.

If he can know what you are thinking about, and if he knows what will choice you will do, does this mean you didn't make the choice?

Originally posted by knightmeister
But I don't think God knows all things "in advance" because the term "in advance" implies he is moving on the same timeline as the universe. I think he knows all things "afterwards" but he can have that knowledge outside of your timeline. He doesn't need "all possible uinverses" because he's not trying to predict what you will do tomorrow he's there r atches you. Whatever the universe does he will know because he's already seen it.

The universe is not moving on a timeline and there is no such thing as absolute time; time (and everything else) is relative to the observer. You need to study Einstein.

Your stuff is a lot of self-contradictory nonsense with some extra "magic" thrown in. You have no explanation for how exactly an entity can both exist at no point and every point in time. And assuming it could, it wouldn't have any ability to do anything but what it always did i.e. the entity itself would have no free will. This is a truly bizarre result for your theology; humans have "free will" but God doesn't. Maybe that why SuperDuper God is soooooooooooooooooo concerned about something as seemingly insignificant in the grand scheme of things as human beings.

EDIT: Here's a basic article on Einstein and relative time; see in particular the train thought experiment. http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/LIGHTCONE/minkowski.html

Originally posted by no1marauder
The universe is not moving on a timeline and there is no such thing as absolute time; time (and everything else) is relative to the observer. You need to study Einstein.

Your stuff is a lot of self-contradictory nonsense with some extra "magic" thrown in. You have no explanation for how exactly an entity can both exist at no point and every p ...[text shortened]... train thought experiment. http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/LIGHTCONE/minkowski.html

"You have no explanation for how exactly an entity can both exist at no point and every point in time. And assuming it could, it wouldn't have any ability to do anything but what it always did" PROVE THIS PLEASE



I am well aware of the contradictory nature of this argument and have already stated that it is paradoxical. All I am trying to illustrate is that if time travel was possible or if there was some entity that was free of time constraints then it may be possible for us to have free will and that entity to know what we will do.

The Dr Who scenario was a hypothetical idea based on the premise that time travel (or something being free of time) was possible. No-one as yet has been able to successfully refute the argument made from the original premise. Most of the debate has attacked the premise rather than the argument itself , which is Ok , but then the argument was hypothetical anyway.

The fact that you bring up Einstein is interesting because as I remember it he postulated that time travel might be possible if you could travel faster than light but he also thought that travelling faster than light was impossible.However , I don't think he was catagorical that the universe was all that there is?

As for God having free will or no free will . I would postulate that God is beyond free will in a sense. He is compelled by his very nature to be holy loving and good so in one sense he is not free . However , he is compelled by his own nature NOT by something else. In a sense he doesn't need free will because he is already free and unlimited by any constraints. It's a bit like say Ghandi , being so good and loving and compassionate that he is "compelled" not to kill other people. Is he robotic because of this? Maybe not , because his love makes him freer than Hitler who seemed compelled to hate and destroy. So maybe God doesn't have free will but then to me if it because he is so full of utter love and compassion and creativity that he cannot do evil then this true freedom indeed, even better than free will!!

"And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free, then you will be free indeed" NT