1. Sydney
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    27 Oct '06 19:01
    Allow me to begin by stating that one's perception dictates one's reality.

    All of the spiritual debate I have read so far on this site has been about varying religious beliefs, yet I have, so far, found no mention of the entheogenic uses of mind altering substances as a tool for spiritual exploration. Civilisations around the world have been using chemicals as spiritual tools for thousands of years-- take traditional shamanic use of amanita muscaria mushrooms by Siberians; mescaline by native Central and North Americans; psilocybe mushrooms, salvia divinorum, and ayahuasca brews by native South Americans; or even LSD by contemporaries as a few examples of spiritual exploration through drugs.

    Feel free to elaborate and share your thoughts.
  2. Standard memberthesonofsaul
    King of the Ashes
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    27 Oct '06 22:16
    I think this sort of thing would take a maturity of culture that certainly does not exist in the United States, where I live. It is true that to find spiritual answers it is necessary to break free of our mental bonds, our human-ness, one could say. However, the person inbibing to do this has to understand to begin with why it needs to be done, or at least the maturity of self to keep himself on the path. Many if not most people in my country injest something or other in order to change the way they think or on the very pathetic level hide from the way they think. The schmoes down the street at the tavern drink to be happy and to hide from stress. Stoners, pill-poppers, needle users, snorters, they are all after some sort of mental change that they feel they need to focus, to deal with life. Even I'm on drugs--perscriptions to help my brain get the energy it needs to actually be able to think and be productive (and helping my chess game a bit in the bargin).

    All of this helps to underline the selfish nature of the society surrounding me. In order for us to use chemicals, either natural or manufactured, to find spiritual answers we would need to come back to earth in the first place and realize that we all need to be part of the greater whole, realize that the world does not revolve around us, realize that each of us is a small part of a much greater thing. In order to find true paths of any sort, to tell the truth, we need to stop being so self-centered and stop thinking that everything we do, everything we say, and everything we accomplish is for ourselves and ourselves alone.

    We have a lot of ground to recover before we can start having peyote rituals, I'm afraid.
  3. Joined
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    28 Oct '06 17:23
    I'm with you 100%. But it's hopeless trying to "tell" the truth about enthogenes. Very few understand, or will ever understand. One can read the "classics" (i.e., Hoffmann, Huxley, Grof, Smith, etc.), but even then one needs the stuff to experiement for one's self. One also needs grace/luck.
  4. DonationPawnokeyhole
    Krackpot Kibitzer
    Right behind you...
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    28 Oct '06 19:01
    Originally posted by JRambo
    Allow me to begin by stating that one's perception dictates one's reality.
    I won't allow you.

    Even if I delusionally perceive myself to be millionaire, then the reality is that I still won't be able to buy that Ferrari.
  5. Sydney
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    28 Oct '06 19:29
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    I won't allow you.

    Even if I delusionally perceive myself to be millionaire, then the reality is that I still won't be able to buy that Ferrari.
    Right. But if you are so completely, unshakably convinced that you do, in fact, own a Ferrari, then nothing and no one can convince you otherwise, right?

    If an exteremely paranoid schizophrenic is convinced that there are a group of secret agents chasing them, then as far as they're concerned, there are, in fact, a group of secret agents chasing them, and they will behave accordingly.

    This is where the argument over what defines 'reality' begins.
  6. Joined
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    29 Oct '06 06:23
    a friend of mine was driving down the road one day high on mushrooms (a very stupid thing to do I admit) and his car started to take off like a plane on a runway and fly. Now I'm pretty sure that if I were looking at his car I would have seen it driving along the road, but as far as his brain was concerned it was flying. So one's perseption definitely dictates one's reality.
    Also, I think it is still definitely possible to expand one's mind with drugs even in modern times. Most of the great modern music (music being one of the most ancient and spiritual traditions there is) has been fueled by copious amounts of drug use.
  7. Standard memberDavid C
    Flamenco Sketches
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    29 Oct '06 07:24
    Originally posted by JRambo
    Feel free to elaborate and share your thoughts.
    Mainstream religious leaders have done a pretty good job at demonizing the altered states of perception that ironically led mankind to be receptive to their soft-shoe shuffle. The response from most religious people will be one of derision and disbelief at the notion that early religious expression was fueled by naturally occurring psychedelics. There is a interesting hypothesis out there that we owe our consciousness in part to a sudden, new ingredient in the dietary habits of our recent evolutionary ancestors.

    Mythologies abound with the amanita motif. Are you familiar with John Marco Allegro's linguistic examination of the DSS found at Qumran that led him to write The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross? Rick Strassman's DMT research? I've started a topic or two 'round these parts, but they met with general indifference.
  8. Sydney
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    30 Oct '06 18:17
    Originally posted by David C
    Mainstream religious leaders have done a pretty good job at demonizing the altered states of perception that ironically led mankind to be receptive to their soft-shoe shuffle. The response from most religious people will be one of derision and disbelief at the notion that early religious expression was fueled by naturally occurring psychedelics. There is a i ...[text shortened]... rch? I've started a topic or two 'round these parts, but they met with general indifference.
    Mainstream religious leaders generally tend to demonize what their dogma can't explain. I'd go so far as to suggest that humanity in general does so, as a product of man's fear of the unknown.

    I haven't read much of Strassman's DMT research, though I am curious as to the cause of the similar (almost identical) experiences various people have had featuring other-worldy entity contact, most notably in forms descibed as "machine elves".

    http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_DMT.shtml

    Same goes for Salvia Divinorum, minus the elves.

    http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Salvia_divinorum.shtml

    Just throwing this out there, but perhaps these substances provide portals into other universes?
  9. Joined
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    30 Oct '06 21:16
    Personally I think the taking of narcotics to achieve spiritual knowledge is a double edged sword. I have a lot to thank drugs for; opening my mind to new ways of thinking, giving my tools for self reflection etc. I would be a completely different person without the experiences I've had through drugs. However, if I could go back now and choose again, I'd find it incredibly hard to decide whether I should trade my heightened perception and ability to think laterally for my rentention, memory and ability to focus. As I grow older I find myself slowly inching towards a desire to have been sober.
  10. Melbourne, Australia
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    30 Oct '06 22:57
    Originally posted by JRambo
    Allow me to begin by stating that one's perception dictates one's reality.

    All of the spiritual debate I have read so far on this site has been about varying religious beliefs, yet I have, so far, found no mention of the entheogenic uses of mind altering substances as a tool for spiritual exploration. Civilisations around the world have been using chemical ...[text shortened]... les of spiritual exploration through drugs.

    Feel free to elaborate and share your thoughts.
    There's a general view out there that drugs are bad. Suggesting that we should use them to enhance our spiritual perceptions has to fight against this ...
  11. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 02:46
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Personally I think the taking of narcotics to achieve spiritual knowledge is a double edged sword. I have a lot to thank drugs for; opening my mind to new ways of thinking, giving my tools for self reflection etc. I would be a completely different person without the experiences I've had through drugs. However, if I could go back now and choose again, I'd ...[text shortened]... y to focus. As I grow older I find myself slowly inching towards a desire to have been sober.
    I think that your problem with drugs may be a modern one, in that I don't think traditional use of drugs produced memory and focus problems as they were used sparingly for ritual purposes and not overused as they are today. That being said, the brain ages just like the rest of the body, so whose to say that your problems with memory and focus are a result of the drugs. Perhaps without the mind expanding power of your ritual drug use you would be in an advanced state of alzeimer's y now. The mind is a funny thing.
  12. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 02:48
    Originally posted by amannion
    There's a general view out there that drugs are bad. Suggesting that we should use them to enhance our spiritual perceptions has to fight against this ...
    there's a general view that drugs not sold by pharmaceutical companies are bad.........
    I wonder who could have started that idea?
  13. Melbourne, Australia
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    31 Oct '06 03:08
    Originally posted by whiterose
    there's a general view that drugs not sold by pharmaceutical companies are bad.........
    I wonder who could have started that idea?
    Yeah, I take your point.
    But we don't go on too much about alcohol for example - if used in moderation - and it hasn't got much to do with the pharmaceutical companies.
    I think your view is probably a little narrow.
  14. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 04:35
    Originally posted by amannion
    Yeah, I take your point.
    But we don't go on too much about alcohol for example - if used in moderation - and it hasn't got much to do with the pharmaceutical companies.
    I think your view is probably a little narrow.
    It is a bit oversimplified, yes. I just wanted to make the point that substances that are potentially much more harmful than some illegal drugs are advertised on television. That and what you class as a drug is very subjective. Technically everything you put in your body that has some effect on it a drug, but illegal "drugs" are supposed to be separated somehow from all of the rest of the harmful stuff we ingest/inhale/absorb. It really is an arbitrary line if you ask me, but many people firmly believe that if it's illegal it must be terrible for you and if your doctor persribes it then it must be great. Politics wins over science every time.
  15. Joined
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    31 Oct '06 04:36
    Originally posted by JRambo
    Allow me to begin by stating that one's perception dictates one's reality.

    All of the spiritual debate I have read so far on this site has been about varying religious beliefs, yet I have, so far, found no mention of the entheogenic uses of mind altering substances as a tool for spiritual exploration. Civilisations around the world have been using chemical ...[text shortened]... les of spiritual exploration through drugs.

    Feel free to elaborate and share your thoughts.
    sounds like garbage, theyre just high thats all, drugs are illegal here anyways.
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