Enlightenment 101

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
Many paths, no doubt. But is there only one goal -- in the ultimate, absolute sense? That's the question I'm keying in on here. A useful philosopher to check into in this case is Plotinus, and in particular, his teachings about what ...[text shortened]... ginning), and more than simply a doctrinal faith in its existence.

Isn't error too ingrained in western mindsets? They wouldn't listen to Christ, they won't be able to hear you either.

if you DESIRE enlightenment, its still desire.
If you desire a cheese burger, its still desire.

if you attach more significance to becoming enlightened, yo are not psychologically free of attachment.
if you attach more significance to succeeding than losing, then you are not free of pychological attachment.

so if you attach significance to your desire to become enlightened, then I would suggest that you stop all spiritual practice, all reading, searching, seeking, philosophical discussions, etc...

and

just be....

try it for a month.

the uncomfortableness you experience within yourself due to this non pursuit of your primary desire albeit spiritual will be a miror that you can learn more about your nature at the present moment.


thought i would add my two cents worth..

Originally posted by Paulisfree2be
if you DESIRE enlightenment, its still desire.
If you desire a cheese burger, its still desire.

if you attach more significance to becoming enlightened, yo are not psychologically free of attachment.
if you attach more significance to succeeding than losing, then you are not free of pychological attachment.

so if you attach significance to your ...[text shortened]... ore about your nature at the present moment.


thought i would add my two cents worth..

That's worth more than two cents.

And, it's good to see you around again, it's been a long time. I hope you're well.

Originally posted by Paulisfree2be
and

just be....

try it for a month.
[/b]

Er ... and do what?

Do I eat? Drink? Visit the john? All without desire of any sort?

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]What also becomes apparent is how this "still silent presence" is always there, even if we get caught up in noisy, distracted thinking.

That’s very helpful. But as I get caught up in the busy-ness of the day or the busy-ness of my own head, I forget. And I get caught up in nets of habitual distractions. I can always “find” it again, but I can’ ...[text shortened]... ation, or like the other night, suddenly, while gazing at "the misty stars."

Any counsel?
[/b]

I would argue that it is difficult to live this philosophy precisely because it is impossible (or unnatural, if you like) to lead a physical life in this principle.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I would argue that it is difficult to live this philosophy precisely because it is impossible (or unnatural, if you like) to lead a physical life in this principle.

Hmmm. What would be "unnatural" about living in the present moment, being watchful of one's mind, etc.?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I would argue that it is difficult to live this philosophy precisely because it is impossible (or unnatural, if you like) to lead a physical life in this principle.

Now, don't be all prejudiced here, this is the Spiritual Forum ...
Try some meditation, what's it going to cost you, ten minutes?

Originally posted by KneverKnight
Now, don't be all prejudiced here, this is the Spiritual Forum ...
Try some meditation, what's it going to cost you, ten minutes?

Ah, that’s really the point here. Alan Watts once said meditation is just being present and “grooving” with the here and now—all the fullness of it, without “thinking” about it. There are techniques of course, to get you started: attention to your breathing, mantra, koans, etc. But they are no more than practice tools—like one might use to learn to hit a golf ball.

Enough grooving in still watchfulness and repose and the “meditation” may become your more natural state in activity as well. It really is not philosophy, any more than doing tai chi is philosophy, or eating well is philosophy, or kissing your beloved is philosophy. It is a way to live, a way of being wholly present—and whole presence—without effortfulness. Then you can “do” philosophy too. It is not dependent on any particular philosophy or religious faith, nor their enemy.

Thank you for the reminder, KK—I’ve been running in my head again too much lately…

Originally posted by vistesd
Ah, that’s really the point here. Alan Watts once said meditation is just being present and “grooving” with the here and now—all the fullness of it, without “thinking” about it. There are techniques of course, to get you started: attention to your breathing, mantra, koans, etc. But they are no more than practice tools—like one might use to learn to hit a ...[text shortened]... r enemy.

Thank you for the reminder, KK—I’ve been running in my head again too much lately…

NP
I just finished cutting grass and instead of thinking about well, whatever, everything BUT cutting grass, I gave my attention to the mowing and it wasn't the onerous chore it usually is.
Hmmm ...
Then it rained and watered it for me.
Hmmmm ...
Took me back to the days when I enjoyed mowing.
There might be something to this after all.

Originally posted by KneverKnight
NP
I just finished cutting grass and instead of thinking about well, whatever, everything BUT cutting grass, I gave my attention to the mowing and it wasn't the onerous chore it usually is.
Hmmm ...
Then it rained and watered it fo ...[text shortened]... i]enjoyed[/i] mowing.
There might be something to this after all.

Wish I would've read that before I went out to mow today! 😉

Originally posted by vistesd
Wish I would've read that before I went out to mow today! 😉

Ahhh, be in the moment ...😀
I've been noticing how much "stuff" I do automatically.
Type on here, grab my drink take a swig without really noticing it, drive a car on a nice day thinking about something else, hurrying through chores without a thought to them.
Seems like I could be missing a lot.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
Hmmm. What would be "unnatural" about living in the present moment, being watchful of one's mind, etc.?

Simple - no one lives purely in the present moment.

If I am walking down the road, then I am going somewhere to do something at some point in the future. If I am picking up groceries at the supermarket (an act in the present), I am doing so with the expectation that I will use it to make dinner (an act in the future). Indeed, I may still perform acts with no future expectation whatsoever (e.g. I might observe a lady shopping with her three sons and empathise with her difficulty in keeping them under control), but most of our actions have a purpose - and purpose implies not living in the present moment.

This is why I say it is unnatural to be a 24/7 Advaitha philosopher who believes physical existence is Maya or illusion.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Simple - no one lives [b]purely in the present moment.

If I am walking down the road, then I am going somewhere to do something at some point in the future. If I am picking up groceries at the supermarket (an act in the present), I am doing so with the expectation that I will use it to make dinner (an act in the future). I ...[text shortened]... al to be a 24/7 Advaitha philosopher who believes physical existence is Maya or illusion.[/b]

That's a profound misunderstanding of Eastern teachings.

Whether or not anyone lives "purely" in the present moment is not the point. The point is all about what you are intending to do with your life. Do you want to live a better life, develop as a person, etc.

For example, you learn to play a musical instrument. Just because you can't play it perfectly doesn't mean you decide that "learning music is unnatural" because I can't do it perfectly. Ditto for any endeavor in life. Just because we have not fully embodied something does not mean we give up all practices and activities related to what we are trying to learn.

In the realm of being a Christian, just because you make mistakes in life, whether in practical or moral realms, does not mean you give up on your faith in Jesus, does it? The equivalent would be to say that because it's unnatural to be without sin in life, without flaw, without capacity for error, I must therefore renounce any hope of being redeemed by Christ.

You also refer to "destination" when walking down the road. The fact that you have a destination to go to has no bearing on the fact that it is simply more practical to be present in this moment. If you are driving to your grocery store and you are not present in the moment, there's a better chance you may drive your car into the ditch. If you are not present with your friend when they're talking to you, there's a better chance you may not actually hear what they're saying, etc. In other words, being out of synch with the present moment lowers the quality of life, generally speaking.

Also, don't confuse conceptual reality with experiential reality. That is, it is entirely possible to think to yourself "I am going to the store" and hold that conceptual reality as your navigation system, so to speak -- while at the same time simply being present as you make your journey to the store -- the experiential reality. To think that these two levels are incompatible or somehow negate each other is to profoundly miss the point.

The practice of being in the present moment does not negate the functionality of being able to navigate one's relationship with space and time. In fact, it actually improves it by making you more accountable and more responsive to what is going on around you at any given time, or what unresolved issues you may have in your life, etc.

As for the concept of "maya" or "illusion", this is a term that can only be properly understood in the context of one's relationship with the "infinite" or the "eternal". Much as a Christian will regard this mortal coil and the Earthly world as temporary, and the dimension of heaven as eternal, so to does the Advaitin regard this dimension as a lesser light or a shadow of a far deeper existence that is recognizable when one's mind has been somewhat trained to see beyond illusion and deluded thinking. But the Advaitin or Buddhist will no more ignore this world or his practical responsibilities than will the Christian.

Illusion in this case seems to mean “partial seeing”—i.e., to see only the figure (the tree) and not the ground (the forest, the mountain, the sky, etc., etc.), or vice versa. I think some people on the spiritual journey try to immerse themselves a kind of escapist “pseudo nirvana” (been there myself). Buddhism, and in particular Zen, rejects any such notions. (So do the monotheistic religions, though the language is quite different.)

Metaphorically, if I perceive myself as a wave separate from the ocean, that is illusion; if I deny my “waveness,” my unique form and existence, that, too, is illusion. The former might be called spiritual or existential alienation; the latter might be called spiritual or existential “suicide.”

Two quotations that I like:

The Holy One manifests himself [sic] in a myriad of forms. I sing the glory of the forms! (Kabir)

God is in us, not like a raisin in a bun, but like the ocean in a wave. (Anonymous)

Originally posted by KneverKnight
Ahhh, be in the moment ...😀
I've been noticing how much "stuff" I do automatically.
Type on here, grab my drink take a swig without really noticing it, drive a car on a nice day thinking about something else, hurrying through chores without a thought to them.
Seems like I could be missing a lot.

It's interesting, but there is a direct relationship between "craziness" and being out of phase with this moment. All sorts of mental illnesses, everything from the "common cold" of mental illness -- mild depression -- to the more delusional psychotic states, are functions of being out of phase with the actuality of reality here and now, as it is.

We live in a time and culture that glorifies the mind, and in specific information. "Information is power", etc. This is all very well but the shadow side of it is excessive mental busyness. When we get "top-heavy" with mental noise there is a corresponding disconnectedness from the actuality of the moment. This phasing out of the moment and being lost in the rattling mind is craziness, in all its forms.

The common idea of the "crazy person" is one who talks to themselves, is lost in their own private reality. And yet, this is what most people are doing, most of the time, if not outwardly then via rambling internal dialogue.

Human civilization is mostly crazy, and history bears that out, for the most part.

I, of course, am totally sane... 🙄😲🙄