Eschatology

Originally posted by Wulebgr
We could note the errors.

Go ahead and note the errors. We are here to learn the truth.

Originally posted by Wulebgr
We could note the errors.

Weren't you the poster who said 'Life is too short?'

😉

Originally posted by Nemesio
Weren't you the poster who said 'Life is too short?'

😉

A shortage of life is the problem.

Originally posted by jaywill
Go ahead and note the errors. We are here to learn the truth.

their

Originally posted by Nemesio
Weren't you the poster who said 'Life is too short?'

😉

I might have said someting to that effect.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]
Okay, give me an example of a farfetched belief that is reasonably commonly held, but with which you disagree.

I think a somewhat commonly held idea which is farfetched is that human imagination invented the character of Jesus and placed fictional words in His mouth. That a group of fishermen from Galilee concocted such a character as Jesus of N ...[text shortened]... e research to imperically detect radio signals from a possible intelligent source in deep space.[/b]

I also think it's unlikely, perhaps even farfetched, that Jesus was an invented character. However, the farfetched belief to which I was referring was not that Jesus was invented. It was that he is still alive, despite having died 2000 years ago.

Most of the middle of your post, although an articulate account of your metaphysical convictions, is not particularly relevant to the points we are discussing; much is surplus to requirement. But thanks for sharing.

I find it interesting that you think demons might be responsible for tales of alien abduction. I think demons are as farfetched as aliens. Indeed, I consider it as likely (though not at all likely in an absolute sense) that aliens are responsible for tales of demonic possession.

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I also think it's unlikely, perhaps even farfetched, that Jesus was an invented character. However, the farfetched belief to which I was referring was not that Jesus was invented. It was that he is still alive, despite having died 2000 years ago.
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When Paul wrote that there were 500 witnesses to His resurrection who were still alive in First Corinthians 15, do you have any records that any of these contemporaries came forward to deny Paul's claim?

"For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; And that He was buried, and that He has been raised on the third day according to the Scriptures;

And that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve; Then He appeared to over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the majority remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. And last of all He appeared to me also, as it were to one born prematurely." (1 Cor. 15:3-8)

Of these people, including the over five hundred witnesses (of whom the majority were alive at the time of Paul's writing to the Corinthians) do you have record of any coming foward to dispute Paul's claim?

If a miracle had not taken place some of these five hundred could certainly have come forward to testify to that fact.

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Most of the middle of your post, although an articulate account of your metaphysical convictions, is not particularly relevant to the points we are discussing; much is surplus to requirement. But thanks for sharing.
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I'll just say that that part was not intended for you. When I write I consider a larger audience.

I myself benefitted in the past by overhearing the discussions of Christians with skeptics. So that middle part was intended for others.


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I find it interesting that you think demons might be responsible for tales of alien abduction. I think demons are as farfetched as aliens. Indeed, I consider it as likely (though not at all likely in an absolute sense) that aliens are responsible for tales of demonic possession.
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I did not say that demons were responsible for all of them.

I think demons are responsible for some of them.

Seances, contacts with the dead (supposedly) are occult experiences which often involve demons and their impersonation of departed people. This is nothing new. The Old Testament speaks of deceiving spirits and familiar spirits working with witches and mediums.

Demons often ramsack the memory of departed loved ones in order to draw those dabbling in the occult into their web of deception. There is every reason to believe they would also adjust thier occultic deception to accomodate modernist ideas of channeling and space alien visitation.

You may not know much about the occult.

You may not understand the basic warfare that exists between the powers of Satan and his hosts with God over human beings and the possession of the earth.

The incarnation of Christ brought on a rise in demonic possession and occultic activity.

So I would sift through the accounts and detect which ones have the flavor of demonic deception. Then there are those left which are probably imaginary.

After these the few that seem worthy of examination I am willing to look at. But I am skeptical.

You see, man basically longs for someone out there who has advanced in technology who will help us get through. This is a misdirected seeking for the help which God has already provided in sending His Son Jesus Christ.

Someone more intelligent, more advanced, having come further than we in civilization, this is the misdirected stuff of those who reject the gospel of God. Expect such tendencies to become stronger and stronger up until the time of the second coming of Christ.

Originally posted by jaywill
Of these people, including the over five hundred witnesses (of whom the majority were alive at the time of Paul's writing to the Corinthians) do you have record of any coming foward to dispute Paul's claim?

There are 1000 people alive today who have witnessed that I am the Lord.
Unless one of them comes forward to deny my claim then you will all know that it is true!

Originally posted by catfoodtim
Everytime I see your user name in my head I read 'twathead'.

I'm not saying this to be inflammatory, just a point of interest.

I think its funny and dont mind at all.
However my point is still valid. A witness to a miracle cannot come forward and claim that he doesnt exist so the abscence of non-witnesses is not in any way evidence of witnesses.

Originally posted by jaywill
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[b]I also think it's unlikely, perhaps even farfetched, that Jesus was an invented character. However, the farfetched belief to which I was referring was not that Jesus was invented. It was that he is still alive, despite having died 2000 years ago.
------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... dencies to become stronger and stronger up until the time of the second coming of Christ.[/b]

Several thousand contemporary witnesses claim to have been abducted by aliens. However, I don't regard their testimony as valid. This is because it their claim to have been abducted by aliens is farfetched. Similarly, I regard as farfetched the claim that a man who died two millenia years ago rose from the dead. Hence, even if several hundred historical witness claim to have seen him, I don't regard their testimony as valid.

I also regard occult claims as farfetched. For one thing, people are cognitively disposed to attribute odd acts to the action of invisible agents. They did so routinely and erroneously before the advent of science. We now know that most of these attributions are wrong. Second, psychological science has recently provided explanations for why and how people misattribute agency, so we have a credible alternative account of the origin of these beliefs.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Several thousand contemporary witnesses claim to have been abducted by aliens. However, I don't regard their testimony as valid. This is because it their claim to have been abducted by aliens is farfetched. Similarly, I regard as farfetched the claim that a man who died two millenia years ago rose from the dead. Hence, even if several hundred historical misattribute agency, so we have a credible alternative account of the origin of these beliefs.

I think you need to spend much more time studying the personal character of the Person Jesus of Nazareth to see if claims of victory over death are consistent with other victories attributed to Him.

I also think that the witnesses over the last 2,000 years who have testified of personal relationship with the Holy Spirit (Jesus in His pneumatic form) is more weighty than the relatively recent accounts of alien abductions since the commencement of the modern space age.

I also think that 24,000 plus portions and fragments of the New Testament indicate that the document testation of the NT cannot be ignored. There is in fact more reason to believe our New Testament is the most well attested document in ancient history.

The account of encounter with ONE person is more easily examined than accounts of encounters with various aliens.

All in all to accept that a miracle did in fact take place is reasonable with the resurrection of Jesus.

He can be known today be cause as Paul wrote "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor .15:45) Since His desire is to be imparted into many people over many areas over much time, it is reasonable that God could put Jesus in a form in which many could know Him.

Originally posted by catfoodtim
You fools!

The White Buffalo Calf Woman will return and purify the world.

You dying comedian. The only thing original you said was not refering to the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

How come jollying about it with wisecracks never seems to impress me?

Originally posted by jaywill
I think you need to spend much more time studying the personal character of the Person Jesus of Nazareth to see if claims of victory over death are consistent with other victories attributed to Him.

I also think that the witnesses over the last 2,000 years who have testified of personal relationship with the Holy Spirit (Jesus in His pneumatic form) is m ...[text shortened]... r much time, it is reasonable that God could put Jesus in a form in which many could know Him.

Do you think that testimony to having a relationship with an invisible person who died 2000 years ago would stand up in a court of law? I don't think so. This points to a problem with the nature of your alleged evidence. In short, there is nothing outside of yourself that you can point to in order to authentic your belief that you are having a relationship with this invisible person. Your are mistaking conviction for proof. You have done nothing to show that this belief is not far-fetched.

Also, I thought that, doctrinally, the Holy Spirit was distinct from Jesus (although not from God, apparently), not a version from Jesus. So, are there only two people in the Trinity? Does your experience of Jesus provide you with a way of settling historically rancorous disputes about whether Jesus is essentially or contingently God?