Eschatology

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Do you think that testimony to having a relationship with an invisible person who died 2000 years ago would stand up in a court of law?
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I have read a volume - Fox's Book of Christian Martyrs which details a vast number of people tortured and killed for their faith that Jesus actually was the living Lord?

Do you have an equivalent writing detailing the persecution, torture, and martrydoms of people staking their futures on the existence of space aliens?

Of course this in itself does not prove that Christ raised from the dead. But it is one thing to claim an unusual event has occured. It is another to be burned alive or fed to lions singing and praising that such an event can be trusted on in the face of death.

Do your abducted person's have anything equivalent to Fox's Book of Christian Martyrs?

Now concerning the court of law and evidence: Let's consider the objective portion only, that is that Jesus was not left dead in a tomb but actually had been raised from the dead - the evidence.

Simon Geenleaf, a Harvard law professor who wrote a standard study on what constitutes legal evidence set out to examine evidences for the Gospel's account of Christ's resurrection. As a result of his examination he became a believer in Christ.

His expertise is in the area of what constitutes genuine eyewitness testimony. He concluded that the four Gospels "would have been received in evidence in any court of justice, without the slightest hesitation" - [The Testimony of the Evangelists, Simon Greenleaf (1874; reprint, Grand Rapids, MIch. Baker 1984, pages 9-10)

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I don't think so. This points to a problem with the nature of your alleged evidence.
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I think the evidence that a band of terrified Galilean fishermen were transformed into extremely strong proclaimers of Christ's resurrection is more like due to that fact than the several modern conspiracy theories that I am aware of.

How do you explain that the twelve (including Judas's replacement) went from hiding from the Jews after teh crucifixion to laying there whole lives on the line to spread the gospel? Mass hypnosis?

How did a persecutor like Saul of Tarsus, who took the initiative to drag the believers out of their houses to jails for calling on the name of Jesus, turn to become an author of some 13 books of the New Testament?

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In short, there is nothing outside of yourself that you can point to in order to authentic your belief that you are having a relationship with this invisible person.
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That may be the way God intends it to be temporarily. It is the changed lives of those who claim His resurrection which God, at this time, wants to testify to the world.

God is about getting into people's lives and saving them from the inside out. There is no question that the original twelve apostles became transformed men. And the women also.

How did Peter, James, and John, who formerly argued over who was the greatest among them, change to coordinate harmoniously to tell the world of Christ's victory over the grave?

Where are the objections of the 500 minus some eyewitnesses whom were living when Paul wrote First Corinthians? They could have come forward to explain that Paul was deluded and Jesus was still in the tomb.

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Your are mistaking conviction for proof. You have done nothing to show that this belief is not far-fetched.
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Resurrection from the dead is indeed not our common experience of everyday life. In that sense I agree that Christ's resurrection was far-fetched. But then again His personality was not the usual one was it?

No man ever spoke like Christ. He occupies a unique class of persons. And the second runner up is far away, be it Mohammed, Buddha, Confucius, etc. The second most likely candidate to have divine teachings is still quite a distance off from Jesus of Nazareth.

You are not dealing with a "Once Upon a Time" book which says only "There was this person called Jesus who did some strange things, including rise from the dead." You have thousands of years of prediction to the coming of such a Person from time to time in the Old Testament prophets.

I will continue to compare your idea of space alien abduction to the resurrection of Christ to see if we are really matching two like events.

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Also, I thought that, doctrinally, the Holy Spirit was distinct from Jesus (although not from God, apparently), not a version from Jesus.
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The Holy Spirit is distinct from Jesus the Son of God. But the Holy Spirit is not separated from Jesus. Jesus lives in the Holy Spirit:

"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)

This verse says that the Holy Spirit is the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus in His pneumatized form is the Third of the Trinity. If you press me to explain this I will say that I cannnot. But we CAN experience the same.

Again Paul writes "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

He did not rise simply to astound people. He rose to impart the divine life giving Spirit into people for their salvation. His resurrection is our new birth. Therefore the Apostle Peter says that we have been regenerated by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

His rising from the dead is designed to be our total new beginning in life:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)

A chief component of His resurection is our being begotten again through His imparting of the "life giving Spirit" that He became in resurrection (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 3:17). The proof of this victory over death in Jesus God delights would be shown in the new lives of those who confess Jesus as Lord and live in Him.

Of course His physical appearance to the world will occur at the climax of the age. If you doubt that thisis the case I would argue that God has shown Himself very faithful to long term promises before.

He came the first time according to God's promise. There is good reason to believe that He will come the second time also according to the same faithfulness of God.

In the mean time, the history of the Christian faith has the testimony of changed lives who staked everything on the confidence that Jesus Christ is the victorious Lord even over death, let alone all persecution and obstacles against the Christian church.

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So, are there only two people in the Trinity? Does your experience of Jesus provide you with a way of settling historically rancorous disputes about whether Jesus is essentially or contingently God?
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At this time I would only point out to you how the Apostle Paul (a former persecutor of the church) used the following titles interchangeably:


1.) The Spirit of God
2.) The Spirit of Christ
3.) Christ
4.) The Spirit of the one who raised Jesis from the dead


Paul moves seamlessly in one breath from one title to the other. Experiencially the disciples cannot detect any difference. Within them is the Triune God:

Now read very carefully:

"But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:9-11)

Paul makes "the Spirit of God" equal to "the Spirit of Christ". Then he seamlessly goes on to make "the Spirit of Christ" equal to "Christ". Then in practically the same breath he tells us that "Christ" is "the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead"

All are said to be dwelling in the believer. That is the One Triune God is indwelling the human spirit of the believers. We cannot discern any practical difference. This is an experiencial passage. The Three of the Trinity are distinct. But in the experience of the believers They are not separated. Each lives within the other and where One is the Other two are.

The Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ = Christ Himself = the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead.

When the Holy Spirit comes into our spirit He brings the Father and the Son. But the whole matter of resurrection is involved more with what God wants to do within man first. Then what He does upon man second.

We are to be regenerated to "a living hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Originally posted by jaywill
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Do you think that testimony to having a relationship with an invisible person who died 2000 years ago would stand up in a court of law?
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I have read a volume - [b] Fox's Book of Christian Martyrs which details a vast number of people tortured and killed for their faith that Jesus actually was t ...[text shortened]... rough the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.[/b]

I lack the energy to document the extreme tendentiousness of your argumentation in detail. Basically, all the evidence you cite can be laid at the door of homespun fervent belief, rather than exotic metaphysical realities.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
I lack the energy to document the extreme tendentiousness of your argumentation in detail. Basically, all the evidence you cite can be laid at the door of homespun fervent belief, rather than exotic metaphysical realities.

Are these then your final unilateral assertions?

I think the reason you are eager to lump Christ's teachings including His resurrection, (and the resurrection of all humans at the last judgment), with alien abductions has more to do with your personal distaste for the idea of accountability to God.

I think you've set up a smoke screen to disquise this dislike for Christ's authority by sloppy comparisons to magazine tabloids and perhaps PBS documentaries about abduction testimonials.

I wager that if you had to choose one or the other to be true you would much prefer the space aliens. They don't seem to say anything about responsibility for moral failures to a Supreme Governor.

They don't seem to say much about anything.

Originally posted by jaywill
Are these then your final unilateral assertions?

I think the reason you are eager to lump Christ's teachings including His resurrection, (and the resurrection of all humans at the last judgment), with alien abductions has more to do with your personal distaste for the idea of accountability to God.

I think you've set up a smoke screen to disq y for moral failures to a Supreme Governor.

They don't seem to say much about anything.

Are these then your final unilateral assertions?

YOUR ASSERTIONS ARE BILATERAL?

I think the reason you are eager to lump Christ's teachings including His resurrection, (and the resurrection of all humans at the last judgment), with alien abductions has more to do with your personal distaste for the idea of accountability to God.

DO YOU NOW? ARE YOU ACCUSTOMED TO IMPUGNING THE MORAL CHARACTER OF THOSE WHO HAPPEN TO DISAGREE WITH YOU?

I think you've set up a smoke screen to disquise this dislike for Christ's authority by sloppy comparisons to magazine tabloids and perhaps PBS documentaries about abduction testimonials.

MAYBE IF YOU PRETEND THAT THE SOURCE OF MY DISAGREEMENT WITH YOU ARISES, NOT FROM DISPASSIONATE REASON, BUT FROM MOTIVATIONAL BIAS, IT'LL SAVE YOU FROM THE DISCOMFORT OF ENGAGING IN ANY CRITICAL THINKING.

I wager that if you had to choose one or the other to be true you would much prefer the space aliens. They don't seem to say anything about responsibility for moral failures to a Supreme Governor.

THE EASE WITH WHICH YOU POINT MORALISTIC FINGERS STINKS OF SMUGNESS.

YOUR ASSERTIONS ARE BILATERAL?


My assertions that Christ will physically come a second time have a good basis. The prophecies that He would come the first time were fulfilled.

Isaiah 53 prophetically discribes His mission in harmony with His own teachings in the gospels. He came 800 years afterwards and fulfilled those promises.

Based upon this reliableness it is reasonable to assume He will again fulfill biblical prophecy.



DO YOU NOW? ARE YOU ACCUSTOMED TO IMPUGNING THE MORAL CHARACTER OF THOSE WHO HAPPEN TO DISAGREE WITH YOU?

Not at all. My reasons for this analysis is not based on the fact that you personally disagree with me. It comes from my own experience as an unbeliever in Christ trying to trivialize the significance of the works and words of Christ.


MAYBE IF YOU PRETEND THAT THE SOURCE OF MY DISAGREEMENT WITH YOU ARISES, NOT FROM DISPASSIONATE REASON, BUT FROM MOTIVATIONAL BIAS, IT'LL SAVE YOU FROM THE DISCOMFORT OF ENGAGING IN ANY CRITICAL THINKING.

You already indicated that you lacked the enthusiasm to continue in a comparison of critical thinking on the subject.



THE EASE WITH WHICH YOU POINT MORALISTIC FINGERS STINKS OF SMUGNESS.

The ease with which you compare 2,000 years of the history of the Christian church with the comparitively short lived modern alledged phenomenon of space alien abductions shows a poverty of objective critical thinking on your own part.

In the argots of the streets, it also "stinks."

Has anyone any idea WHAT these abducting space aliens have taught?

Are there TWO statements of any kind form them, agreeing that they present SOME kind of ideas to the world of humans?

Or are they just alledged to have wisked people away and brought them back befuddled on general principal?

Originally posted by jaywill
YOUR ASSERTIONS ARE BILATERAL?

My assertions that Christ will physically come a second time have a good basis. The prophecies that He would come the first time were fulfilled. Isaiah 53 prophetically discribes His mission in harmony with His own teachings in the gospels. He came 800 years afterwards and fulfilled those promises. Based upon this reliableness it is reasonable to assume He will again fulfill biblical prophecy.


THIS DOESN'T MEAN YOUR ASSERTIONS ARE BILATERAL. HENCE, YOUR ATTEMPTED CHARACTERIZATION OF MINE AS DEFECTIVELY UNILATERAL, IN CONTRACT TO YOUR OWN, IS EMPTY. AS FOR YOUR STATEMENTS HERE, YOUR NEGLECT OF THE POSSIBILITY OF HINDSIGHT BIAS BORDERS ON THE WILLFUL.

DO YOU NOW? ARE YOU ACCUSTOMED TO IMPUGNING THE MORAL CHARACTER OF THOSE WHO HAPPEN TO DISAGREE WITH YOU?

Not at all. My reasons for this analysis is not based on the fact that you personally disagree with me. It comes from my own experience as an unbeliever in Christ trying to trivialize the significance of the works and words of Christ.

WELL, KINDLY DON'T PROJECT YOUR OWN SINS ON TO ME. CLEARLY, YOUR CHRISTIAN CHARITY DOESN'T EXTENT TO ATTRIBUTION.

MAYBE IF YOU PRETEND THAT THE SOURCE OF MY DISAGREEMENT WITH YOU ARISES, NOT FROM DISPASSIONATE REASON, BUT FROM MOTIVATIONAL BIAS, IT'LL SAVE YOU FROM THE DISCOMFORT OF ENGAGING IN ANY CRITICAL THINKING.

You already indicated that you lacked the enthusiasm to continue in a comparison of critical thinking on the subject.

I INDICATED THAT I LACKED THE ENERGY TO DOCUMENT YOUR TENDENTIOUSNESS AT LENGTH, NOT QUITE THE SAME THING. IN ADDITION, EVEN IF I "LACKED THE ENTHUSIASM TO CONTRIBUTE IN A COMPARISON OF CRITICAL THINKING ON THE SUBJECT", IT WON'T ABSOLVE YOU OF THE RESPONSIBILITY NOT TO IMPUGN PEOLE WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU.

THE EASE WITH WHICH YOU POINT MORALISTIC FINGERS STINKS OF SMUGNESS.

The ease with which you compare 2,000 years of the history of the Christian church with the comparitively short lived modern alledged phenomenon of space alien abductions shows a poverty of objective critical thinking on your own part.

In the argots of the streets, it also "stinks."

YOU NEED TO READ MORE CAREFULLY WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID, AND STOP ADDING YOUR OWN TENDENDIOUS INTERPRETATIONS THEREOF. I COMPARED THE FARFETCHEDNESS OF BELIEVING THAT A MAN WHO DIED 2000 YEARS AGO IS STILL CURRENTLY ALIVE WITH THE FARFETCHEDNESS OF BELIEVING THAT ALIENS ABDUCT HUMANS. I AM NOT COMPARING "2000 YEARS OF THE HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH" WITH ALIEN ABDUCTION.

Originally posted by jaywill
Has anyone any idea WHAT these abducting space aliens have taught?

Are there TWO statements of any kind form them, agreeing that they present SOME kind of ideas to the world of humans?

Or are they just alledged to have wisked people away and brought them back befuddled on general principal?

Are you assuming they are real? Or do you mean SUPPOSEDLY taught?

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Are you assuming they are real? Or do you mean SUPPOSEDLY taught?

I am seeking on all points in which to two matters may be compared.

I am more familiar with the Christian gospel. So that is my starting point to make the comparison.

If they haven't written or taught anything that you know of then just tell me and I'll eliminate that from my list of comparison points.

Originally posted by jaywill
Has anyone any idea WHAT these abducting space aliens have taught?

Are there TWO statements of any kind form them, agreeing that they present SOME kind of ideas to the world of humans?

Or are they just alledged to have wisked people away and brought them back befuddled on general principal?

The average IQ of alleged abductees is 90, which is slightly lower than the average IQ of those who have experienced the "lights" associated with near-death experiences.

Originally posted by Wulebgr
The average IQ of alleged abductees is 90, which is slightly lower than the average IQ of those who have experienced the "lights" associated with near-death experiences.

Well this is getting kind of fuzzy.

I don't give a flip about sensational "near death" experiences.

So I think we have lost focus here. Perhaps we want to pull back to just comparing the historical reliability of the resurrection of Jesus to that of some specific notable account of alien abduction.

If we're going to compare IQs of everyone who said this and that I think it will be pointless. I mean do I care what is the average IQ of the person who goes to see "The Passion of the Christ" with that of the person who attends Star Trek conventions, etc. etc. etc.?

Originally posted by Wulebgr
The average IQ of alleged abductees is 90, which is slightly lower than the average IQ of those who have experienced the "lights" associated with near-death experiences.

What do you suppose happened to the physical corpse of Jesus ?

We have the Corinthian letter in which Paul informs the church in Corinth that Christ appeared alive to 500 witnesses at one time. Paul says that most of these witnesses were still alive at that time of his writing to the Corinthian church.

He wrote this so that the veracity of Christ's resurrection could be checked with these people.

There is no way we can check the IQs of these witnesses. The line of popular sketicism is that mostly people not too smart believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

One thing is certain. The remaining witnesses (most of the 500) could have come forward to dispute Paul's claim if they were still alive when Paul wrote to Corinth.

Where are the documents demonstrating that someones of this group disputed the resurrection with Paul?

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]YOUR ASSERTIONS ARE BILATERAL?

My assertions that Christ will physically come a second time have a good basis. The prophecies that He would come the first time were fulfilled. Isaiah 53 prophetically discribes His mission in harmony with His own teachings in the gospels. He came 800 years afterwards and fulfil ...[text shortened]... MPARING "2000 YEARS OF THE HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH" WITH ALIEN ABDUCTION.[/i]

I COMPARED THE FARFETCHEDNESS OF BELIEVING THAT A MAN WHO DIED 2000 YEARS AGO IS STILL CURRENTLY ALIVE WITH THE FARFETCHEDNESS OF BELIEVING THAT ALIENS ABDUCT HUMANS. I AM NOT COMPARING "2000 YEARS OF THE HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH" WITH ALIEN ABDUCTION.

But you see the man being alive is the bases of our history as a Christian community. And that we've proclaimed for about 2000 years as the gospel.

If Jesus is not alive there is no gospel. Our faith is in vain if He is not alove.

For some 2,000 years men and women have said they met Jesus and knew Jesus. I claim to have enjoyed fellowship with Jesus this very morning.

I understand what Paul means when he wrote long ago "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

In resurrection He not only physically rose and is somewhere "at the right hand of God" where ever that may be, but He transfigured Himself into a form in which we can know Him - "a life giving Spirit"

I admit that this "life giving Spirit" is in the mystical realm. So let's talk about the evidence of the whereabouts of His physical body for a while.