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Originally posted by CalJustCaljust,
Rajk999 has just let out quite a tirade against me suggesting that I show more Christian effection for Grampy Bobby than for you.
Grampy Bobby and I have been playing a few games of chess and have gotten to know each other over private messages.
I know him better. And if you are a brother in Christ please do not regard my addressing Grampy as "Brother" to mean anything more than that. Off the board we just got to know each other better. That's all.
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Originally posted by sonshipYou have repeatedly said or implied that those who believe that following Christ's commandments of love and good works are important, are not saved ..
Caljust,
Rajk999 has just let out quite a tirade against me suggesting that I show more Christian effection for Grampy Bobby than for you.
Grampy Bobby and I have been playing a few games of chess and have gotten to know each other over private messages.
I know him better. And if you are a brother in Christ please do not regard my addre ...[text shortened]... mean anything more than that. Off the board we just got to know each other better. That's all.
Originally posted by sonshipIf you read my post again (and remembering that we are talking about eternity) I indicated the way I was going to argue, i.e. I was intending to establish if we agree on how we make decisions, and what the punishment of a wrong decision should be - on the basis of the normal human behaviour that we use every day.
I would rather see what corner you wish to paint me into before I stand on a certain spot.
I had no major problem with what you wrote so far.
But if it doesn't work for you, then, we stop.
I found that it is best to define exactly what it is we are discussing, limiting the scope to preferably one issue, so that we do not try to solve 100 problems at the same time.
So if you accept my items 1-3, we can go on if you like.
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Originally posted by CalJust
Item 1.
God wants to have fellowship with all his creation. He desires that NOBODY be lost, but that ALL should come to salvation.
Okay. He desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
[This is sonship]
Item 2
God has made provision for this reconciliation and fellowship through Jesus Christ
Yes. Okay.
OK so far?
Yes. Continue.
Item 3
Yet this provision is most definitely a Free Gift, "not of works, lest any man should boast"
Okay. I agree. And your point is what ?
[This is sonship]
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
2003, 2010 William E. Wenstrom, Jr. Bible Ministries 7 "The Lord has built a city for His heavenly people (John 14:1-3; Heb. 11:16). The Lord is the architect and builder of this city (Heb. 11:10). This city is called the New Jerusalem, the city of the living God (Heb. 12:22). It is a literal city and the Word of God describes it in detail. The believer is to diligently seek or desire for the time when he will live in the New Jerusalem (Heb. 13:14).
Church age believers who are winners in time will have their names recorded in its permanent historical record section and will have their names permanently inscribed upon the pillars of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12a). The New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven from God (Rev. 3:12b; 21:2, 10). It is called the “holy city” because no unrighteousness or evil will be allowed in it for all eternity (Rev. 21:2a, 8, 27). It will be a city of integrity and virtue.
The teaching here is good. But it is shortsighted on a couple of points.
1.) The writer says the constituents of New Jerusalem have their names " ... permanently inscribed upon the pillars of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12a).
This is somewhat a natural understanding with a typical human concept. What Revelation 3:12 says that is that Christ will make the overcomer a pillar -
" He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore." (Rev. 3:12a)
This is a matter of life. It is easy to misunderstand that there is some physical pillar with a disciple's name on it. But that is too natural and objective for the deeper truth.
To be MADE a pillar is that the believer himself or herself IS the living pillar of the temple of God. The house of the living God is the church. And the church is people, specifically transformed and built up in love PEOPLE of God as Paul says -
"But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth." (1 Tim. 3:15)
The house of God, the temple of God is the church of the living God. This is persons filled with God. This is persons built up into an habitation of God in spirit (Eph. 2:22)
It is superficial then to not grasp that Revelation 3:12 is referring to transformed PEOPLE AS pillars, living pillars in the living house of the living God.
Here again the writer of Hebrews identifies the house of God with living persons - "whose house WE ARE ..."
" But Christ was faithful over His house, whose house we are if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end." (Hebrews 3:6)
And once again Paul tells the Ephesians that they are being built up into a dwelling place of God in spirit:
"Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone; In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:20-22)
For length sake I stop here. The bottom line is that to be made a pillar in the New Jerusalem is something related to divine life. It is about the transformation of a living person to be solidly supporting God's living dwelling place and temple - a living matter of God dwelling in man.
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Originally posted by sonshipPatience please, just bear with me and we will take this one step at a time.
Item 3
Yet this provision is most definitely a Free Gift, "not of works, lest any man should boast"
Okay. I agree. And your point is what ?
Remember, at any time you can say that you don't agree with me and offer an alternative viewpoint. OK?
Item 4.
How do we get this Free Gift?
I suggest that there are only two ways.
Lets call the first kind Type A. It is When God gives it to you sovereignly and unilaterally, without any previous action or preparation on your part.
Typical examples of this is Paul's Damascus Road experience. God simple tapped him on the shoulder and said: Hi! This is me!
Other examples are the Disciples. Jesus said of them "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." In fact , most of the people who came to Jesus of their own accord and said: "Master, I want to follow you", he turned away.
The second way to accept the Free Gift (let's call it Type B) is by Personal Choice. This is exemplified in verses such as "Chose you this day whom you will serve..." and "Whosoever calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved".
Do you agree that these are the only two ways that people come to faith in Christ?
Relax! This is not a trick question. Don't worry about being painted into a corner! 🙂
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Originally posted by sonship2003, 2010 William E. Wenstrom, Jr. Bible Ministries 7 "The Lord has built a city for His heavenly people (John 14:1-3; Heb. 11:16). The Lord is the architect and builder of this city (Heb. 11:10). This city is called the New Jerusalem, the city of the living God (Heb. 12:22). It is a literal city and the Word of God describes it in detail. The believer is to diligently seek or desire for the time when he will live in the New Jerusalem (Heb. 13:14).
Brother Grampy,
Concerning some having an everlasting life who are not born again, as I wrote. You said "verses ?".
I would like to proceed by asking your view of some reasoning about certain Bible passages. Then maybe you will see yourself how I could say this. Maybe not also.
What do you think? When the word of God says of the sons of God ...[text shortened]... s of God will reign over forever and ever?
Do you believe that we will reign over each other ?
Church age believers who are winners in time will have their names recorded in its permanent historical record section and will have their names permanently inscribed upon the pillars of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12a). The New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven from God (Rev. 3:12b; 21:2, 10). It is called the “holy city” because no unrighteousness or evil will be allowed in it for all eternity (Rev. 21:2a, 8, 27). It will be a city of integrity and virtue..." (Page 8)
______________________________________________
There's no tertium quid when it comes to the separation of those human beings who chose for rather than against Christ in time; nor for those believers in Christ who redeemed the time during their brief [as a "fleeting vapor trail" mentioned in James] life on earth by exposing themselves to the accurate [isagogical, exegetical, categorical] teaching of the Word of God on a systematic basis [not nod to God on Sunday and/or Wednesday] acquiring the Mind of Christ; and those believers in Christ who developed negative volition toward absolute biblical truth in favor of some half truth or human good crusade.
The human race will be divided into two categories for eternity: believers and unbelievers in Jesus Christ. (John 3:18, 36)
As Pastor Bill Wenstrom noted: There are "Church age believers who are winners in time..." The losers are still members of Christ's magnificent Royal Family but will lose out on eternal reward at The Judgment Seat following the Rapture ['saved so as by fire.'] At the Second Advent of Christ seven years following the Rapture, Christ Himself will establish and rule over the Millennium, a time of perfect environment and freedom. Those mature believers who acquired the Mind of Christ in time to the maximum will rule with Him; all other believers will be observers. At the conclusion of the Millennium and following the Great White Throne Judgment of all unbelievers, the present earth will be destroyed and replaced by a new universe and earth and New Jerusalem. All Royal Family Members will serve and reign in whatever capacities God chooses for all eternity.
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Originally posted by CalJust
Item 4.
How do we get this Free Gift?
I suggest that there are only two ways.
Lets call the first kind Type A. It is When God gives it to you sovereignly and unilaterally, without any previous action or preparation on your part.
Typical examples of this is Paul's Damascus Road experience. God simple tapped him on the shoulder and said: Hi! This is me!
Other examples are the Disciples. Jesus said of them "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." In fact , most of the people who came to Jesus of their own accord and said: "Master, I want to follow you", he turned away.
The second way to accept the Free Gift (let's call it Type B) is by Personal Choice. This is exemplified in verses such as "Chose you this day whom you will serve..." and "Whosoever calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved".
Do you agree that these are the only two ways that people come to faith in Christ?
You may be disappointed that I do not believe that one TYPE is true and the other is false so as to make them mutually exclusive.
I believe both that Type A and Type B are at work.
For apparently, that is what the Bible says.
Rather than feel the necessity to pit them against each other, I trust that both aspects are different angles of the truth of salvation.
Originally posted by sonship"You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." John 15:16 God, not man, initiates grace; salvation is a volitional choice.
[quote] Item 4.
How do we get this Free Gift?
I suggest that there are only two ways.
Lets call the first kind Type A. It is When God gives it to you sovereignly and unilaterally, without any previous action or preparation on your part.
Typical examples of this is Paul's Damascus Road experience. God simple tapped him on the shoulder and said: Hi ...[text shortened]... gainst[/i] each other, I trust that both aspects are different angles of the truth of salvation.
Originally posted by sonshipWow, are you skittish! I'm not sure what you are thinking or expecting, but this is just s friendly discourse.
You may be disappointed that I do not believe that one TYPE is true and the other is false so as to make them mutually exclusive.
I believe both that Type A and Type B are at work.
For apparently, that is what the Bible says.
Rather than feel the necessity to pit them against each other, I trust that both aspects are different angles of the truth of salvation.
Of course BOTH are true, that's what I said in my post. We have examples in the Bible of both these types of interaction between God and man.
Would you agree with me that when Type A occurs, there is almost never any recorded refusal of the offer. Reluctance, maybe, (as in Isaiah or Hosea) but outright dismissal? No.
So would i be correct in saying that when God so sovereignly calls someone, it is a life changing experience? (Again, Saul of Tarsus). And when he does NOT so sovereignly call somebody, such a person (who is not so called) defaults to Type B, i.e. they have to make their choice themselves, and are themselves responsible for their decision?
Reality check: Are you still with me? OK so far?
Originally posted by sonship"Doctrine of New Heavens and Earth"
[quote] 2003, 2010 William E. Wenstrom, Jr. Bible Ministries 7 "The Lord has built a city for His heavenly people (John 14:1-3; Heb. 11:16). The Lord is the architect and builder of this city (Heb. 11:10). This city is called the New Jerusalem, the city of the living God (Heb. 12:22). It is a literal city and the Word of God describes it in detail. The believer ...[text shortened]... solidly supporting God's living dwelling place and temple - a living matter of God dwelling in man.
http://gracedoctrine.org/new-heavens-and-earth-doctrine-of/
"Doctrine of New Jerusalem"
http://gracedoctrine.org/new-jerusalem-doctrine-of/
sonship, it's my hope that you will enjoy these two expositions from the Teaching Ministry of Pastor James Rickard.
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Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
sonship, it's my hope that you will enjoy these two expositions from the Teaching Ministry of Pastor James Rickard.
Well, it was my hope that you would answer the question in some way - "Over who do you think the sons of God will reign over forever and ever?"
Revelation 21:24 speaks of the nations which walk in the light of the New Jerusalem -
"And the nations will walk by its light; ..." (21:24)
Immediately you have the CITY and the NATIONS in the light of the city.
Or in terms which you would understand, you have the "Royal Family" and the "nations" the Royal Family.
Many assume that the nations living in eternity have to of course be the same people as those who make up the city New Jerusalem. But there is a difference.
The constituents of the New Jerusalem eat the fruit of the tree of life. But the nations walking in the light of the city are healed by the leaves of the tree of life.
"And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." (Rev. 22:2)
There is a distinction between the eating of the fruit of the tree of life and the being healed by the leaves of the tree of life.
Those reigned over by the sons of God are also those healed by the leaves of the tree of life. That is the nations which have in their midst the New Jerusalem and walk by her light.
So you have the sons of God whose names are in the book of life.
And you have the nations who are restored, healed, and reigned over whose names are also recorded in the book of life.
At the end of this age a great part of the inhabitants of the earth will be killed as a result of the sixth and seventh trumpets. The rest will be judged by Christ at the throne of His glory when He comes back to earth. The condemned ones, the "goats," will be cursed and will perish in the lake of fire, while the justified ones, the "sheep," will be blessed and will inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt. 25:31-46). Unlike the New Jerusalem believers, the "sheep" will not be saved and regenerated; they will only be restored to the original state of man as he was created by God. They will be the nations as citizens of the millennial kingdom, in which the overcoming believers will be the kings (20:4,6) and the saved remnant of Israel will be the priests (Zech. 8:20-23). After the millennial kingdom, a part of these nations, deceived by the devil, will rebel against the Lord and will be consumed by fire from heaven (20:7-9). The rest will be transferred to the new earth to be the nations, which will live around the New Jerusalem and walk by its light. They will be the peoples mentioned in vv. 3 and 4. [Footnote 24: (1) for Rev.24:1, Recovery Version]
"And I heard a loud voice out of the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His peoples, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away." (21:3,4)
The new universes therefore consists of the sons of God as the living tabernacle of God and the nations surrounding the holy city who are restored, healed, and brought back into the state of the original created man Adam, before Adam fell.
These nations around the holy city are created but unregenerated human beings. They will be maintained to live forever in their created state through the healing of the leaves of the tree of life (22:2).
"And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." (22:2)
Within the city there is no sun nor moon to mark seasons. But there are outside the city still the marking of months. This too reveals that there is within the New Jerusalem one state of man and without another state.
The eating of the fruit of the tree of life signifies that taking of God as life into man's being. But the being healed by the leaves of the tree of life signifies the restoration of man by following the examples presented to the world by the sons of God who live God, live Christ from within.
This is for the nations of unregenerated human nations to walk in the light of the city. This is also for the unregenerated human nations be healed by the leaves of the tree of life.
Even for these restored nations there will be no death (v.4). Under the shining of the New Jerusalem with the divine glory, neither will there be darkness.
This is a brief word on who the sons of God will reign over forever and ever in the new heaven and new earth. And you probably never heard this before in traditional evangelical Christianity.
An important key is to understand that Adam was not indwelt with the life of God but was created "very good" before he had a chance to EAT of the tree of life. Nations will be restored into this state and benefit from the New Jerusalem of the sons of God in their midst in eternity.
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Originally posted by CalJustIf that is the way the Apostle Paul received the Free Gift, then it looks more like a punishment to me.
Patience please, just bear with me and we will take this one step at a time.
Remember, at any time you can say that you don't agree with me and offer an alternative viewpoint. OK?
Item 4.
How do we get this Free Gift?
I suggest that there are only two ways.
Lets call the first kind Type A. It is When God gives it to you sovereignly and unil ...[text shortened]... hrist?
Relax! This is not a trick question. Don't worry about being painted into a corner! 🙂
The apostle Paul wrote the following to the Corinthians:
For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.
(1 Corinthians 9:16-18)
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(1 Corinthians 1:17-18)