Ethics of Lying

Originally posted by PatNovak
Again, I am not trying to discuss the effectiveness of lying, but whether it is acceptable to lie. There is a long history of Christians trying to influence non-Christians to become Christians (e.g. missionaries). I am asking whether it is acceptable to lie when doing this. And if it isn't acceptable to lie when trying to save people's souls for eternity, then is there ever an acceptable time to lie (including to save the school bus of children)?

Agers is correct, no lies.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Agers is correct, no lies.

That is an intellectually consistent position, so I certainly can't criticize your position as inconsistent. With this thread, I am more interested in those Christians who believe lying is sometimes acceptable, but not to save souls, because I think that position is intellectually inconsistent.

Originally posted by Agerg
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=137334&page=1

Robbie cannot be swayed on this one... Better a million Jews die than deception that will save them

I am very interested in the idea that some Christians would view it as acceptable to lie to save someone's life but unacceptable to lie to save their eternal soul.

For a Christian who believes in Heaven/Hell/eternity, shouldn't it actually be more important to save a person's soul than to save that same person's life? I agree that it is disturbing to think someone wouldn't lie to save a Jew from Auschwitz. But I think it is perhaps even more disturbing that someone genuinely believes that same Jew is due for an eternity of torture (or at least will be denied an eternity of bliss), yet wouldn't consider lying to them to try to prevent that.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No Rahab withheld information from people to whom it was not owing to give, that is different from lying.

Wrong. She lied.
Josh 2:4-7
Then the woman took the two men and hid them. So she said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. 5 And it happened as the gate was being shut, when it was dark, that the men went out. Where the men went I do not know; pursue them quickly, for you may overtake them." 6 (But she had brought them up to the roof and hidden them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order on the roof.)
NKJV

Originally posted by PatNovak
I am very interested in the idea that some Christians would view it as acceptable to lie to save someone's life but unacceptable to lie to save their eternal soul.

For a Christian who believes in Heaven/Hell/eternity, shouldn't it actually be more important to save a person's soul than to save that same person's life? I agree that it is disturbing to thi ...[text shortened]... ill be denied an eternity of bliss), yet wouldn't consider lying to them to try to prevent that.

Pat, you're mixing your metaphors.

A Christian is commanded to seek the best and highest good in every situation.
With respect to salvation (the best and highest good), no lie is ever required.
With respect to life among men, sometimes--- maybe even often times, depending upon the situation--- lies are absolute necessities.

I would lie my ass off if it meant keeping someone from meeting their demise by criminal agents.
But I would never lie about the issues pertinent in salvation.
There's simply no need for subterfuge in the former situation.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Pat, you're mixing your metaphors.

A Christian is commanded to seek the best and highest good in every situation.
With respect to salvation (the best and highest good), no lie is ever required.
With respect to life among men, sometimes--- maybe even often times, depending upon the situation--- lies are absolute necessities.

I would lie my ass off i ...[text shortened]... e issues pertinent in salvation.
There's simply no need for subterfuge in the former situation.

So is the only reason you wouldn't lie to help convert people is because you think it lacks effectiveness and is unnecessary? Like I mentioned several times before, I am not trying to discuss whether lying would be effective in this case, but whether it would be moral/ethical. I am far more interested in your view of the morality of lying to win converts than your view on the effectiveness of lying to win converts.

Originally posted by Suzianne
No, it IS a non sequitur, just as the Pascal's Wager is a non sequitur.

You cannot win converts by lying, that's ridiculous. The only one who sees it as "lying" is the non-believer. And what kind of lying are we talking about here, anyways? "Convert to my religion and God will make you rich beyond your wildest dreams of avarice"? And the guy q ...[text shortened]... y kind would benefit Christianity, or be "for the good of Christianity". Can you give examples?

It's like Obamacare.

People like yourself support it, even though Obama had to lie to sell it.

See, every ones is happy now. 😵

Originally posted by PatNovak
So is the only reason you wouldn't lie to help convert people is because you think it lacks effectiveness and is unnecessary? Like I mentioned several times before, I am not trying to discuss whether lying would be effective in this case, but whether it would be moral/ethical. I am far more interested in your view of the morality of lying to win converts than your view on the effectiveness of lying to win converts.

The effectiveness of a technique can change the moral evaluation regarding its use. Moral decisions often come down to weighing good consequences vs. bad consequences and choosing the lesser evil/greater good. If a morally controversial action is ineffective, one can argue that it's not morally correct because it ought to be obvious to the actor that little good can come of it, and much harm.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I would lie my ass off if it meant keeping someone from meeting their demise by criminal agents.

Agreed.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Wrong. She lied.
Josh 2:4-7
Then the woman took the two men and hid them. So she said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. 5 And it happened as the gate was being shut, when it was dark, that the men went out. Where the men went I do not know; pursue them quickly, for you may overtake them." 6 (But she had brought them u ...[text shortened]... e roof and hidden them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order on the roof.)
NKJV

she could have hid them without knowing where they were from and where they went.

Originally posted by PatNovak
I am very interested in the idea that some Christians would view it as acceptable to lie to save someone's life but unacceptable to lie to save their eternal soul.

For a Christian who believes in Heaven/Hell/eternity, shouldn't it actually be more important to save a person's soul than to save that same person's life? I agree that it is disturbing to thi ...[text shortened]... ill be denied an eternity of bliss), yet wouldn't consider lying to them to try to prevent that.

I cannot really comment as i don't profess belief in hell or the immortality of the soul, some people refused to lie to save even their own lives in the concentration camps.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
...some people refused to lie to save even their own lives in the concentration camps.

I cannot see what is wrong with lying to somebody threatening to murder you in cold blood. I do not see that 'not lying' in this situation proves anything.

Originally posted by FMF
I cannot see what is wrong with lying to somebody threatening to murder you in cold blood. I do not see that 'not lying' in this situation proves anything.

Yes but not everyone thinks or acts the same way as you do. Would you renounce your faith to save your life? Can you see why that might be problematic for a devout Christian?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes but not everyone thinks or acts the same way as you do.

If you don't want to discuss it that's fine. I shall address further comments to whoever is interested in examining this issue. I see 'not lying to someone carrying out the Nazi Holocaust' as pride and suicidal religionist fervour rather than exercise principle or application of ethics.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes but not everyone thinks or acts the same way as you do. Would you renounce your faith to save your life? Can you see why that might be problematic for a devout Christian?

How many times are you going to edit your post after it has been replied to?