Originally posted by PatNovak First, I think it is extremely implausible that deception has absolutely no chance of swaying a person toward Christianity. Out of all the millions and billions that have become Christians over the centuries, how likely is it that not single individual was moved toward Christianity, at least in part, due to a lie of some sort or another? We know that lies a ...[text shortened]... to even consider using deception when they believe an eternity of bliss or torture is at stake.
You might not understand what constitutes salvation in the mind of the Christian.
At issue is whether a person stands before God on the basis of their own work, or on the basis of the work done on the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't know a way to convey that information which could be considered a lie.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH You might not understand what constitutes salvation in the mind of the Christian.
At issue is whether a person stands before God on the basis of their own work, or on the basis of the work done on the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't know a way to convey that information which could be considered a lie.
What about claiming that Jesus came to you in a dream or that you had a vision in which Jesus gave you instructions or a message which he told you to pass on? If this were not true and yet did not deviate much from the instructions and messages in the Bible, would it be reasonable to consider it a lie?
Originally posted by FreakyKBH You might not understand what constitutes salvation in the mind of the Christian.
Apparently the Christian does not understand what constitutes salvation the way Christ understands it...
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. (Matthew 25:34-36 KJV)
Christ is saying that its the charitable and giving people get salvation.
What's that? It refers to other people ... not Christians? OK fair enough. Hows about this one:
.. Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him,..Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (Luke 10:25-27 KJV)
Whats that ? Christ was talking to the Jews, not the Gentiles? OK fair enough. How about the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ was referring to himself? Ok fair enough. What about the Rich Man and Lazarus? Not clear enough?
Nothing Christ says is good enough, that is why you need to fabricate your own doctrine.
Originally posted by PatNovak I thought this quote from Martin Luther was interesting:
"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."
I think most of us would lie if we thought that the good outcome ...[text shortened]... ng would increase your chances of saving someone for eternity, would you do so? If not, why not?
Not sure what other Christians said but there is a clear case in the Bible for doing whatever it takes to get through this life successfully and end up in a good place... for yourself and those you care about.
Christ said to remove all obstacles to your entry into the Kingdom of God and that includes body parts. Quite likely he meant that literally. Paul in a situation of a man sleeping with his fathers wife suggested in order to save the man in the day of judgment that they should :
1Co 5:5 .. deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Possibly that meant to report the man to the authorities and face the death penalty. Lying therefore sounds like the least of the evils. However in the case where someone is clearly not interested in the truth of salvation then Christ suggested that you dust of yourself and do not throw your pearls before swine.
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Originally posted by Rajk999 Not sure what other Christians said but there is a clear case in the Bible for doing whatever it takes to get through this life successfully and end up in a good place... for yourself and those you care about.
Christ said to remove all obstacles to your entry into the Kingdom of God and that includes body parts. Quite likely he meant that literally. Paul ...[text shortened]... ation then Christ suggested that you dust of yourself and do not throw your pearls before swine.
Wow! Maybe if I cut off both arms and legs, and my head, I'll make it!
Good deal!
Originally posted by PatNovak You argued that "the effectiveness of a technique can change the moral evaluation regarding its use." My response was my argument as to why the effectiveness rate in this case is completely insignificant to any moral evaluation.
[b]Second, I can't speak for others, but my guess is that some really do think that lying in promotion of their faith is not ef ...[text shortened]... y no chance of working (in other words, you might say I think they are telling "a useful lie" ).
Originally posted by FreakyKBH You might not understand what constitutes salvation in the mind of the Christian.
At issue is whether a person stands before God on the basis of their own work, or on the basis of the work done on the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't know a way to convey that information which could be considered a lie.
The path to "salvation" does not consist exclusively of the actual act of salvation. Getting someone on the path to salvation might start with convincing a person to go to church once, or read a few passages from the bible, or watch a video, or some other relatively small and insignificant event. I don't see any reason why it would be impossible for a lie to successfully get a person started on this path. See FMF's example as a good example of the type of lie that I am referring to.
Originally posted by PatNovak See FMF's example as a good example of the type of lie that I am referring to.
I have come across a few examples over the years but one of the clearest was a couple who led a prayer group pretending to speak in tongues [every week, at the same time... Friday, around 7.15 pm] in order to impress [impressionable] members of the group and create some sort of 'leadership credentials'. Despite this deceit, I considered them to be sincere in their belief that their leadership would help members of their group along the road to salvation.
Originally posted by FMF What about claiming that Jesus came to you in a dream or that you had a vision in which Jesus gave you instructions or a message which he told you to pass on? If this were not true and yet did not deviate much from the instructions and messages in the Bible, would it be reasonable to consider it a lie?
But it's an unnecessary lie.
The purpose (salvation for the hearer) is not advanced by the falsity, which itself requires more effort (creating an alternative reality) than what already exists and is efficacious.
Originally posted by Rajk999 Apparently the Christian does not understand what constitutes salvation the way Christ understands it...
[i]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a strang ...[text shortened]... ugh?
Nothing Christ says is good enough, that is why you need to fabricate your own doctrine.
I realize you feel compelled to bring every conversation around to your perspective and how much succor you find in spreading your Gospel of guilt, but the fact of the matter is, you're just full of so much crap.
But (just for the sake of argument), let's imagine your scenario as valid and put it to the same question that is asked by the OP.
Is there any reason you can think of wherein lying would advance your ideas on salvation?
Originally posted by PatNovak I want to make sure I am understanding you. Your perjury reference makes me think I wasn't clear in my question.
Using the Jew/Nazi hypothetical again: In a situation where you have a choice between lying and telling the truth, and lying is the only possibility to save this Jew from the Nazi, do you consider telling the truth in this instance to be a more moral act than lying in an attempt to save the Jew?
Yes, of course. I would try to save the life of the Jew.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH But it's an unnecessary lie.
The purpose (salvation for the hearer) is not advanced by the falsity, which itself requires more effort (creating an alternative reality) than what already exists and is efficacious.
People ~ especially impressionable or vulnerable people ~ can be swayed by the personal testimony of others. I don't think the "effort" needed on the part of the liar is the issue here. If the lie about the vision draws someone in and interests them in the liar's beliefs regarding "salvation" then it is an example of PatNovak's "[lying to get] someone on the path to salvation".
Originally posted by FMF People ~ especially impressionable or vulnerable people ~ can be swayed by the personal testimony of others. I don't think the "effort" needed on the part of the liar is the issue here. If the lie about the vision draws someone in and interests them in the liar's beliefs regarding "salvation" then it is an example of PatNovak's "[lying to get] someone on the path to salvation".
Sorry, still don't get the draw.
There's only one scenario I can imagine wherein lying might be employed: someone who doesn't understand the topic.
Ethics of Lying
13 Aug '14 22:36
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