everyone is born an arminian

Originally posted by sonship
Heavily influenced ? Probably not.
Somewhat influenced ?
Apparently according to Wiki.

Reference please. I did look and could not find it. I am certainly not very knowledgeable on the subject (Chinese history) and would like to learn more.

Confucius used the phrase "sinned against heaven".
Some form of higher or supreme goodness I think is indicated.
And I think not. 'Heaven' is actually an English translation for a concept we don't have in the west.

That "atonement" was needed at all implies the need to be justified. And it is to some form of higher court.
I think you would need to study Confucianism and ancient Chinese philosophy a lot more before you could say that with confidence. But then you are well known for saying with confidence things you really don't have a first clue about.

Diyu by the way is hell not heaven.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Reference please. I did look and could not find it. I am certainly not very knowledgeable on the subject (Chinese history) and would like to learn more.

[b]Confucius used the phrase "sinned against heaven".
Some form of higher or supreme goodness I think is indicated.
And I think not. 'Heaven' is actually an English translation for a concept we ...[text shortened]... nfidence things you really don't have a first clue about.

Diyu by the way is hell not heaven.[/b]

About the phrase "sinned against the heavens" ? I could be in error. I could be mistaken that Buddha said it.

For my own curiosity I may spend time to go find where I read that.

You can do some of your own homework.

I didn't say Diyu WAS heaven or hell.
And if you read that, go complain to whoever did say it.

Here's your reference twhitehead about what I recall about the teaching of Confucius. it was concerning Confucius that I heard a Chinese man say he wrote something about sinning against heaven.

In his classical writings Confucius refers a few times to God, speaking of Him not in biblical terms, but with the title of heavenly king or the heavens. This is similar to the word in Luke 15 about the prodigal son sinning against heaven. Confucius said that if we offend the heavenly emperor, or the heavens, there is no way for us to be forgiven. According to his concept, instead of asking for forgiveness, we should try to change ourselves and improve. This was a basic philosophical and ethical thought among students of Confucius: forget the past and try your best to improve.

From Life Study of Exodus by Witness Lee, published by Living Stream Ministry

Lee was born and raised in mainland China.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=19AEC54ECB

Originally posted by sonship
[b]You can do some of your own homework.

You said you read something on Wikipedia about Confucius getting some philosophy from Budhism. Do you have a reference for that?

I didn't say Diyu WAS heaven or hell.
And if you read that, go complain to whoever did say it.
I didn't say you did say that. If you read that, go complain to whoever did say that.

You did say that "Confucius held to the belief in DiYu". I find that unlikely and would love to know what your source was.

Originally posted by sonship
Here's your reference twhitehead about what I recall about the teaching of Confucius. it was concerning Confucius that I heard a Chinese man say he wrote something about sinning against heaven.

In his classical writings Confucius refers a few times to God, speaking of Him not in biblical terms, but with the title of heavenly king or the heavens ...[text shortened]... prove.

From Life Study of Exodus by Witness Lee, published by Living Stream Ministry

So basically the exact opposite of what you earlier claimed (that there was a need for judgement, punishment and penitence).

Also no quote from Wikipedia about Confucius getting something from Buddhism?

Originally posted by twhitehead


Also no quote from Wikipedia about Confucius getting something from Buddhism?[/b]

So basically the exact opposite of what you earlier claimed (that there was a need for judgement, punishment and penitence).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote me where I mentioned these things.
Then I can examine IF I mentioned them and IF I latter said something which was the opposite.

Also no quote from Wikipedia about Confucius getting something from Buddhism?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Confucianism discusses elements of the afterlife and views concerning Heaven, but it is relatively unconcerned with some spiritual matters often considered essential to religious thought, such as the nature of souls.

The link in the Confucius article led when following the word "afterlife" to this comment -
[my bolding]

Diyu (Chinese: 地獄; Sanskrit: Naraka) is the realm of the dead or "hell" in Chinese mythology. It is loosely based on a combination of the Buddhist concept of Naraka, traditional Chinese beliefs about the afterlife and a variety of popular expansions and reinterpretations of these two traditions.

So, it would appear you were mistaken.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] So basically the exact opposite of what you earlier claimed (that there was a need for judgement, punishment and penitence).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote me where I mentioned these things.
Then I can examine IF I mentioned them and IF I latter said something which was the opposite. ...[text shortened]... life and a variety of popular expansions and reinterpretations of these two traditions. [/quote][/b]

Which of course just means they too don't know crap about 'afterlife' which there is none.

BTW, did we finally sort out whether we are all born arminians, Armenians, or Confucians?

Originally posted by moonbus
BTW, did we finally sort out whether we are all born arm[b]inians, Armenians, or Confucians?[/b]

And what are you the day before you are born?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Which of course just means they too don't know crap about 'afterlife' which there is none.

Big talk. Nothing more.
Just big macho talk from you who has no clue what awaits you the moment you pass from this world .. not a clue.

"Afterlife" is not a term I ever use.
I simply clicked on the link on "afterlife" in the article about Confucius to get some writer's insights into some of the influences on Confucius.

The only point I make so far is that men of all cultures, regions and times very innately feel that if there is a higher court or supreme something or Someone/s to be reconciled to, they can do so by their own efforts.

Then there are atheists, who essentially have the same attitude. Yet it is usually cloaked in either apathy, hostility, or unbelief in anyone else to be accountable but themselves.

That's my opinion. You're welcome to have another. But I think the amount of time many of them spend here arguing betrays such an attitude of being able to do fine without God.

The Bible's message is that man can break his relationship with God. But once it is broken God has to come in to restore it.
Intrinsically man rejects this. Basically man feels that if something is wrong between him and supreme goodness as a court of finality, he. man, can fix the matter himself.

In your case you suspect that you cannot. You resent that there is a need. And it is best to labor to deny that there is any ultimate authority in existence that would have that claim on you.

However, pouting "crap" doesn't make it so.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And what are you the day before you are born?

A fetus.

Originally posted by moonbus
tw: And what are you the day before you are born?

A fetus.

Were you a human being two or three days before you were born ?
Were you a human being several weeks before you were born ?
Were you a human being two or three months before you were born ?

Just asking.

Originally posted by sonship
Were you a human being two or three days before you were born ?
Were you a human being several weeks before you were born ?
Were you a human being two or three months before you were born ?

Just asking.

The danger here is misusing definitions. If someone says 'yes' or 'no' without giving a definition of 'human' you will have no idea what they mean.
Much better would be to ask what specific properties change at birth or during pregnancy.
In my own opinion there is no real change at birth other than a psychological one on our behalf.
As for morality relating to the situation (which is probably what you are interested in) I would say there is a gradual change from conception to a while after birth during which it a child slowly gains moral 'rights'.

I ain't no foreigner arminian...I'm a 100% red-blooded 'merican. 😏