26 Nov 10
This keeps coming up in this forum and whenever I challenge it, there is silence. Yet a few days later it is posted again.
Posters claim that there is either archeological evidence that Jesus lived, or that there are non-Christian writers who give credence to the claim that he existed.
Why when I challenge these claims does nobody want to take up the challenge?
26 Nov 10
3 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadnon-Christian writers who give credence to the claim that he existed, maybe these will dispel the silence! we can live in hope, and before you try anything slippery, there are not a few Christian and non-Christian writers who give credence to the FACT that Christ existed,
This keeps coming up in this forum and whenever I challenge it, there is silence. Yet a few days later it is posted again.
Posters claim that there is either archeological evidence that Jesus lived, or that there are non-Christian writers who give credence to the claim that he existed.
Why when I challenge these claims does nobody want to take up the challenge?
“Jesus of Nazareth . . . is easily the dominant figure in history.”—H. G. Wells, English historian.
“Christ stands . . . solitary and alone among all the heroes of history.”—Philip Schaff, Swiss-born theologian and historian.
“It would require much exotic calculation, however, to deny that the single most powerful figure—not merely in these two millenniums but in all human history—has been Jesus of Nazareth.”—Reynolds Price, American writer and Bible scholar.
“A man who was completely innocent offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act.”—Mohandas K. Gandhi, political and spiritual leader of India.
“As a child, I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene.”—Albert Einstein, German-born scientist.
“Jesus Christ, to me, is the outstanding personality of all time, all history, both as Son of God and as Son of Man. Everything He ever said or did has value for us today, and that is something you can say of no other man, alive or dead.”—Sholem Asch, Polish-born essayist as quoted in Christian Herald;
“For thirty five years of my life I was, in the proper acceptation of the word, nihilist, a man who believed in nothing. Five years ago my faith came to me. I believed in the doctrine of Jesus Christ and my whole life underwent a sudden transformation.”—Count Leo Tolstoy, Russian novelist and philosopher.
“[Jesus’] life is the most influential ever lived on this planet and its effect continues to mount.”—Kenneth Scott Latourette, American historian and author.
“Shall we suppose the evangelic history a mere fiction? Indeed, my friend, it bears not the marks of fiction. On the contrary, the history of Socrates, which nobody presumes to doubt, is not so well attested as that of Jesus Christ.”—Jean-Jacques Rousseau, French philosopher.
They are all of course well known in their own right, which one would you like to dispute and on what grounds.
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieClearly I was not clear about what I meant. I am talking about non-Christian writers that in some way would provide evidence that Jesus existed other than testimony given by Christians. If those non-Christian writers based their conclusions on the testimony of Christians then it doesn't count, as it doesn't provide any new information not contained in the testimony of Christians.
non-Christian writers who give credence to the claim that he existed, maybe these will dispel the silence! we can live in hope, and before you try anything slippery, there are not a few writers who give credence to the FACT that Christ existed,
26 Nov 10
5 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadsee the amended text, are you stating that Gandhi was a Christian, Einstein was a Christian? Sholem Asch was a Christian? so now we must dispense with what, the writings of Rousseau, Tolstoy, for clearly then they must have been mistaken, is that what you are saying, mistaken simply because they were Christians? Indeed i fail to see why they should be excluded on this basis and you have provided none.
Clearly I was not clear about what I meant. I am talking about non-Christian writers that in some way would provide evidence that Jesus existed other than testimony given by Christians. If those non-Christian writers based their conclusions on the testimony of Christians then it doesn't count, as it doesn't provide any new information not contained in the testimony of Christians.
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadHere's a wikipedia page on the historicity of Jesus.
This keeps coming up in this forum and whenever I challenge it, there is silence. Yet a few days later it is posted again.
Posters claim that there is either archeological evidence that Jesus lived, or that there are non-Christian writers who give credence to the claim that he existed.
Why when I challenge these claims does nobody want to take up the challenge?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by Proper KnobThis means that it is meaningless to discuss whether Jesus was gay or not, a communist or not, a vegetarian or not, a buddhist or not, an African or an Asiat, given birth by a virgin or not, or whatever. Let's first discuss if he existed as a person (and not a symbol) in the first place.
Here's a wikipedia page on the historicity of Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadI do not imagine you will see a lot given that many people in power during
Clearly I was not clear about what I meant. I am talking about non-Christian writers that in some way would provide evidence that Jesus existed other than testimony given by Christians. If those non-Christian writers based their conclusions on the testimony of Christians then it doesn't count, as it doesn't provide any new information not contained in the testimony of Christians.
Jesus' time actually hated the movement and killing Christ's followers was
a past time.
Kelly
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by KellyJayAnd how do you know this if there is "not a lot" of evidence? Or is "not a lot" enough for only some things?
I do not imagine you will see a lot given that many people in power during
Jesus' time actually hated the movement and killing Christ's followers was
a past time.
Kelly
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by PalynkaA little research on your part will see that Christians were murdered for
And how do you know this if there is "not a lot" of evidence? Or is "not a lot" enough for only some things?
being a follower of Jesus from the time Jesus left us as a human till now.
During even N/T times you also so it, if you can show me where that was
not done that'd be something worth discussing.
Kelly
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadI am confused; surely the vast majority of non-Christian would not deny that he existed? How many non-Christian would insist that he never existed? -surely not many?
This keeps coming up in this forum and whenever I challenge it, there is silence. Yet a few days later it is posted again.
Posters claim that there is either archeological evidence that Jesus lived, or that there are non-Christian writers who give credence to the claim that he existed.
Why when I challenge these claims does nobody want to take up the challenge?
I mean, I know that the mere word of scriptures is not proof of anything, but surely there is nothing incredible about a claim that there merely was a religious man called Jesus. I mean, it is not as if that compares with a claim that there existed a tooth fairy or a supernatural angel etc. So why think such a plausible claim is probably false just because it is in some scriptures? I mean, why would it be ridiculous to presume that there is at least a grain of truth in the historical accounts of the scriptures (excluding the various absurd claims such as for supernatural beings etc ) .
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadTacitus (c. 56–c. 117), writing c. 116, included in his Annals a mention of Christianity and "Christus", the Latinized Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah". In describing Nero's persecution of this group following the Great Fire of Rome c. 64, he wrote:
This keeps coming up in this forum and whenever I challenge it, there is silence. Yet a few days later it is posted again.
Posters claim that there is either archeological evidence that Jesus lived, or that there are non-Christian writers who give credence to the claim that he existed.
Why when I challenge these claims does nobody want to take up the challenge?
Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular
There is disagreement about what this passage proves, since Tacitus does not reveal the source of his information. Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote that: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign
Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93 AD. In these works, Jesus is mentioned twice, though scholars debate their authenticity. The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum.
In the first passage, called the Testimonium Flavianum, it is written:
About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease to follow him, for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day
Judging from Alice Whealey's 2003 survey of the historiography, it seems that the majority of modern scholars consider that Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but that the text that has reached us is corrupt. There has been no consensus on which portions have been altered, or to what degree. However, Geza Vermes points out in an in-depth analysis of the passage that much of the language is typically Josephan, which not only supports the hypothesis that Josephus did write something about Jesus, but also may aid in determining which parts of the passage are genuine
In the second, brief mention, Josephus calls James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." The great majority of scholars consider this shorter reference to Jesus to be substantially authentic,
you can read more about this at the following link that I copy/pasted parts from here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonI am not denying that he existed. I am trying to determine what lines of evidence we have that he did, and more importantly, why Christians feel the need to make exaggerated claims regarding the evidence, and why they act so defensively when called on it (see Robbie above).
I am confused; surely the vast majority of non-Christian would not deny that he existed?
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadI can only imagine they act defensively as those that believe science alone
I am not denying that he existed. I am trying to determine what lines of evidence we have that he did, and more importantly, why Christians feel the need to make exaggerated claims regarding the evidence, and why they act so defensively when called on it (see Robbie above).
gives us truth get when it gets questioned, it is a human thing.
Kelly
26 Nov 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe OP...
I am not denying that he existed. I am trying to determine what lines of evidence we have that he did, and more importantly, why Christians feel the need to make exaggerated claims regarding the evidence, and why they act so defensively when called on it (see Robbie above).
Posters claim that there is either archeological evidence that Jesus lived, or that there are non-Christian writers who give credence to the claim that he existed.
Why when I challenge these claims does nobody want to take up the challenge?- twhitehead
I believe I just did take up your "challenge" and showed only a couple of examples out of many of non christian writers who give credence to the historical existence of a man named Jesus whose followers became known as Christians. If you choose to ignore my post thats fine, but either way there is your proof. Hope I was helpful