Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Joined
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    15 Feb '19 19:003 edits
    I realize that this is a hot topic, both on a religious level and a political level. After all, Egypt has a lot to lose politically if it is proven that the Hebrew people were slaves for all those years, so as a result, not everyone is after the truth here. At least we can all agree on that I think. Also, those who either hate the Bible or don't believe in it have a lot to gain by disproving it or not having evidence for it.

    So what evidence does anyone have, if any? Also, if the Hebrew people did not come from Egypt, where did they come from or where they always in Israel? If the later, this also has political ramifications as Palestinians would be threatened politically if it were proven that the Hebrew people had control of the land for a long, long period of time.

    One documentary I saw was perhaps the most compelling one that showed evidence for the Exodus. It was called, "Patterns of Evidence: Exodus", by Tim Mahoney.

    The general premise of the documentary is this, the date for the Exodus was far earlier than the time of Pharaoh Ramseys. This is why archeologists were looking for the Exodus during his reign.

    Exodus 1: 11: The Israelites, as slaves, worked under tight taskmasters’ commands to build the treasure cities of Pharaoh, the Pithom and the Rameses.

    Exodus 12:37: The people of Israel, 600,000 thousand men on foot and unknown number of children, journeyed from the place called Rameses to another place called Succoth

    Now if the Exodus happened earlier than the time of Ramseys, there is archeological evidence for the Hebrew people, but no evidence for them during or after the era of Ramseys.

    From my vantage point, it appears that the story was written down well after the Exodus, after the era of Ramseys as they simply used the name of the city during the time when it was written down.
  2. Stargazing
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    15 Feb '19 19:08
    Would you mind repeating that.
  3. Joined
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    15 Feb '19 19:14
    @divegeester said
    Would you mind repeating that.
    Repeating wut?
  4. Standard membercaissad4
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    15 Feb '19 20:00
    @whodey said
    Repeating wut?
    Let me see. You say 600,000 people wandered the Sinai desert for 40 years and left absolutely no evidence behind. Nothing at all ???
    Food and water aside, just the trash and other waste would still be evident.
    This is a myth, a fairy tale which you keep insisting is truth.
    I understand it is unsettling to see your religious beliefs revealed as lies but the truth is the truth.
  5. SubscriberSuzianne
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    15 Feb '19 20:13
    God's pact with Abraham was long before the Hebrews came out of Egypt, in fact long before they went to Egypt. The events of Genesis happened before the events in Exodus. It's not that hard to follow the Torah.
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    15 Feb '19 21:534 edits
    @caissad4 said
    Let me see. You say 600,000 people wandered the Sinai desert for 40 years and left absolutely no evidence behind. Nothing at all ???
    Food and water aside, just the trash and other waste would still be evident.
    This is a myth, a fairy tale which you keep insisting is truth.
    I understand it is unsettling to see your religious beliefs revealed as lies but the truth is the truth.
    Trash? The desert is notoriously filled with nomads over the millennia with very little trace of them, and last time I checked the Hebrew people had no non-biodegradable plastic.

    But there appears to be some evidence even at that.

    http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/answers/exoduspottery.php

    From 1972-1982 the Ben-Gurion University (in Israel) conducted an extensive archaeological survey of the northern Sinai area. They documented 284 sites in northern Sinai where pottery shards and other remains of ancient occupation were found. These sites were arranged in groups with larger sites in the center and smaller sites on the outer edges of the group. They found that the larger center sites were "base sites" where central activities (such as buying and selling) occurred, that the medium-size sites were family living areas, and the small outer sites were encampments for shepherds. They found that the people who lived at these sites were nomadic, wandering from place to place. They said "In most of the sites there is no evidence of solid building, and it looks as if the inhabitants lived in booths, tents, or lean-tos."



    Gerald E. Aardsma, Ph.D., showed back in 1995 that these encampment sites were made by the Israelites early in the Exodus. They reveal, in fact, the first three stops along the route of the Exodus: Succoth, Etham, and Pi-hahiroth. These Sinai sites fit the Biblical account very well.


    So why do most archaeologists say the Exodus never happened? Because the pottery they've found in the Sinai is from about 4,500 years ago, while the traditional date for the Exodus is only about 3,500 years ago. They assume that this pottery must not be from the Exodus because of its date.

    But the traditional date for the Exodus is wrong. Dr. Aardsma has shown that a full millennium has accidentally been overlooked by biblical chronology scholars in the past. (See What is the missing millennium discovery?) When the overlooked millennium is restored to biblical chronology, the problem of the missing Exodus pottery shards disappears.

    Conclusion

    Because the archaeologists have been looking for the Exodus in the wrong time period, they haven't found it. Unfortunately, they have then gone on to conclude that the Exodus must never have happened. This is the wrong conclusion. When you look in the right time period, there's plenty of evidence to show that, in fact, the Exodus did happen, just as the Bible describes it.
    The foregoing article was based on research reported on in The Biblical Chronologist Volume 1, Number 6 and The Biblical Chronologist Volume 2, Number 1. Full details and references to the scholarly literature can be found there.
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    15 Feb '19 22:00
    Again, getting back to my original thesis, they are looking for the wrong time period.
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    16 Feb '19 00:08
    @whodey said
    Again, getting back to my original thesis, they are looking for the wrong time period.
    I've never heard this.

    Everything I've ever seen indicates a date somewhere between 1500-1200 BCE. But you are claiming 1,000 years before that, is that right?
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    @suzianne said
    I've never heard this.

    Everything I've ever seen indicates a date somewhere between 1500-1200 BCE. But you are claiming 1,000 years before that, is that right?
    https://dove.org/timothy-mahoney-writerproducerdirector-of-patterns-of-evidence-exodus/

    Dove: What do you think is wrong with the timeline that modern scholars are using?

    Tim: “I think the biggest problem is associating the time of the Exodus with Pharaoh Ramses. This would date the Exodus to around 1250 BC. There are other scholars who look at the biblical date of 1450 BC as being more accurate to the Bible’s own definition of when the Exodus happened. What Patterns of Evidence has uncovered is striking evidence matching all of the 6 major events recorded in the Bible. But these events still show up earlier than expected. So why is that?

    Egyptologists like David Rohl suggest that there are problems with Egypt’s dating, that the reigns of pharaohs are overlapping, they are not end-to-end. Some are suggesting that this produces dates in those periods that are way off. David Rohl and others suggest that there needs to be a change to Egypt’s timeline if this is done then the evidence would synchronize with biblical history. It all starts to line up and that’s what this film looks at and raises that question again.”

    We want to thank Tim for his insights and for the exhaustive research he has put into this project. The film Patterns of Evidence: Exodus presents both sides of the evidence and encourages the audience to decide what they believe. It can be found on DVD/Blu Ray and where digital downloads are available so if you want to know more, we encourage you to get your copy today.

    Dove: What was one of the most intriguing things you discovered on the journey?

    Tim: “Right in the beginning is the story of Joseph. Probably one of the most complete pieces of information the film reveals is found underneath the city of Ramses, where there is an older city called Avaris. There we see a dwelling that is not Egyptian, its more like a Semitic type dwelling from the area that Abraham came from. It had the same type of characteristics and the style of the house and the community of people that lived there, and it exactly matches the story of Joseph where Pharaoh said, ‘bring your family here and let them settle on the land.’ That group then grows into a larger community and over the top of that original Semitic-type house, a palace was built, which is a beautiful Egyptian palace but the occupant is not Egyptian, it was a Semitic ruler. You know the story of the Bible where it says Pharaoh made Joseph his second in command. Egyptologist David Rohl saw a connection in the archaeology to the biblical narrative and explained it like this, ‘So here was an esteemed person living in the heart of this Semitic community in this Egyptian palace. And in the back of the house is a graveyard with 11 principle tombs and one tomb that is very special. It is a pyramid tomb with a statue of a Semitic person with red hair and light color skin, not the type of color that Egyptians would have painted on their statues. It has a multicolored coat and a staff of authority and it absolutely fits the story of Joseph and his family.’”
  10. Joined
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    16 Feb '19 00:211 edit
    One thing is for sure, if the Exodus did happen, there will be no record of it in Egyptian history. They were notorious for only including history that made them look good and ignoring, or trying to change, history that made them look bad.

    All we would have would be the Hebrew version. I'm just glad the Bible includes the good, bad, and ugly of the Hebrew people, giving it more veracity than Egyptian history.
  11. Standard membergalveston75
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    16 Feb '19 19:45
    @caissad4 said
    Let me see. You say 600,000 people wandered the Sinai desert for 40 years and left absolutely no evidence behind. Nothing at all ???
    Food and water aside, just the trash and other waste would still be evident.
    This is a myth, a fairy tale which you keep insisting is truth.
    I understand it is unsettling to see your religious beliefs revealed as lies but the truth is the truth.
    You should read the book of Exodus better. For example try Exodus the 16th chapter and in particular the 35th verse on the issue of food and where they had more then enough to eat. With Jehovah anything is possible, right?
  12. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    16 Feb '19 20:01
    @galveston75 said
    You should read the book of Exodus better. For example try Exodus the 16th chapter and in particular the 35th verse on the issue of food and where they had more then enough to eat. With Jehovah anything is possible, right?
    I'm comforted to see you know your Bible so well sir. As an aside, where in the Bible does it say that God’s kingdom is not a kingdom but a government?

    (I know, of course, you won't direct me to Daniel 2:44 or Isaiah 9:6 as neither are any help in this matter).
  13. Standard membergalveston75
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    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    I'm comforted to see you know your Bible so well sir. As an aside, where in the Bible does it say that God’s kingdom is not a kingdom but a government?

    (I know, of course, you won't direct me to Daniel 2:44 or Isaiah 9:6 as neither are any help in this matter).
    It doesn't. Never said it did. But why couldn't the term government not apply? But if it does I'll not use it if I can remember.

    government[guhv-ern-muh nt, ‐er-muh nt]
    EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGINSEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR government ON THESAURUS.COM
    noun
    the political direction and control exercised over the actions of the members, citizens, or inhabitants of communities, societies, and states; direction of the affairs of a state, community, etc.; political administration:
    Government is necessary to the existence of civilized society.
    the form or system of rule by which a state, community, etc., is governed:
    monarchical government; episcopal government.
    the governing body of persons in a state, community, etc.; administration.
    a branch or service of the supreme authority of a state or nation, taken as representing the whole:
    a dam built by the government.
    (in some parliamentary systems, as that of the United Kingdom)
    the particular group of persons forming the cabinet at any given time:
    The prime minister has formed a new government.
    the parliament along with the cabinet:
    The government has fallen.
    direction; control; management; rule:
    the government of one's conduct."
  14. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    18 Feb '19 06:26
    @whodey said
    I realize that this is a hot topic, both on a religious level and a political level. After all, Egypt has a lot to lose politically if it is proven that the Hebrew people were slaves for all those years, so as a result, not everyone is after the truth here. At least we can all agree on that I think. Also, those who either hate the Bible or don't believe in it have a lot to ...[text shortened]... he era of Ramseys as they simply used the name of the city during the time when it was written down.
    There is plenty of evidence here and there of Hebrew people inhabiting Egypt. There are several famous papyri that show what appear to be transactions with people who have Hebrew/Semitic names.

    https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/were-hebrews-ever-slaves-in-ancient-egypt-yes-1.5429843

    It is beyond a doubt true that prior to the exodus from Egypt there were Semitic groups in Egypt, and some might even say that the Hebrews are basically one and the same as the Hyksos but this is an oversimplification because it is likely that there were many groups within the Hyksos.

    It is also true that there are other peopel who point out that among the people simply identififed as the Sea People by bronze age civilizations have names closely resembling Philistine and Hebrew groups -- showing, as well, that at least some of the Hebrews may have been raiding seafering people at some point prior to King David or the Exodus.

    But a lot of this is very vague and inherently speculative.

    There is also another issue:

    We don't understand the Hebrew number system fully, and we can end up with different sets of numbers from different sources. This is because the Hebrews used letters in place of actual numerals, and there appears to be disputes about these, as well as disputes about the values of some of the units that are used.

    It's an incredibly complex issue.
  15. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    18 Feb '19 06:30
    @whodey said
    One thing is for sure, if the Exodus did happen, there will be no record of it in Egyptian history. They were notorious for only including history that made them look good and ignoring, or trying to change, history that made them look bad.

    All we would have would be the Hebrew version. I'm just glad the Bible includes the good, bad, and ugly of the Hebrew people, giving it more veracity than Egyptian history.
    People who downvoted this:

    Whodey is completely right.

    Atheist archaeologists know this as well.

    There are battles both recorded by the Assyrians and Egyptians where both sides claim victories even though we know that the truth is that someone is lying or that neither side was remotely victorious.

    It was incredibly common for history that was undesirable to never be reocrded -- and for history to be rewritten. Everyone shoudl be well aware of the attempts at reformign the Egyptian religion into monotheism in Egypt, which failed miserably, and the desire to erase Akhenaten from the records.

    ... And it is also from this that people sometimes speculate as to how we should interact with the histories as they are written in the Bible.

    They are very unique in the sense that they record defeats meticulously, with a series of prophets warning the leaders of impending doom.

    It's really unique.

    Yet, at the same time, it should give us pause about some of the modern attitudes with which we approach them simply because history does not work like or mean the same things to different people at differnt times. Thus, the idea of recording a history that is explicitly allegorical makes sense.
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