1. Standard memberroyalchicken
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    27 May '05 23:26
    Originally posted by Coletti
    That's true. 🙂

    But the idea that science is limited to the likes of biology and chemistry was not always the case. The first scientists were philosophers, Thales, Aristotle, Aquinas. I think it was Francis Bacon who started the movement to separate the natural sciences from the philosophical sciences. But I think the separation has gone too far. I t ...[text shortened]... t scientists if they had a better understanding of the philosophic roots of "natural" science.
    Conversely, it would behoove philosophers to learn a bit about the type of reasoning scientists find useful, as Alan Sokal hilariously demonstrated.
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    27 May '05 23:29
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    The naturalism that science adopts is methodological naturalism. It does not assume that nature is all there is; it merely notes that nature is the only objective standard we have. Supernaturalism is not ruled out a priori; it is left out because it has never been reliably observed. There are many scientists who use naturalism but who believe in more than ...[text shortened]... lly all other subjects for the same reason.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA601.html
    I agree totally that scientists and all people, for that matter, should the view that you just put forward. And you mistook me if you thought I was suggesting that we discard evolution on the basis that it functions on naturalistic philosphy.
    But why, then, do emminent scientist immediately reject and write off any anti-evolutionary arguments as religion (in the most derrogatory form)? They fight creationists or anyone who points out the shortfalls of evolutionary theory tooth and nail, often resorting to personal attacks on religious beliefs and credibility. The fact is, most scientists DO reject anything related to supernaturalism right out of the box.

    I don't say that naturalism is wrong or that we should change science. I say that we must recognize science for what it is. We cannot immediately reject any other explanation, religious in nature or not, as unacceptable because they are not naturalistic.
  3. Donationbbarr
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    27 May '05 23:351 edit
    Originally posted by royalchicken
    Conversely, it would behoove philosophers to learn a bit about the type of reasoning scientists find useful, as Alan Sokal hilariously demonstrated.
    The Sokal Hoax was not aimed at philosophers, it was aimed at pomo literary critics. Read Paul Boghossian's (an analytical philosopher) analysis of the relevance of the Sokal Hoax, and his indictment of pomo generally.

    http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/faculty/boghossian/papers/SokalHoax.html
  4. Standard memberColetti
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    27 May '05 23:43
    Originally posted by royalchicken
    Conversely, it would behoove philosophers to learn a bit about the type of reasoning scientists find useful, as Alan Sokal hilariously demonstrated.
    Actually, I think the philosophers have an edge on the scientist when it comes to reasoning:

    From Bertrand Russel regarding inductive (a.k.a. scientific) arguments:
    All inductive arguments in the last resort reduce themselves to the following form: "If this is true, that is true: now that is true, therefore this is true." This argument is, of course, formally fallacious. Suppose I were to say: "If bread is a stone and stones are nourishing, then this bread will nourish me; now this bread does nourish me; therefore it is a stone, and stones are nourishing." If I were to advance such an argument, I should certainly be thought foolish, yet it would not be fundamentally different from the argument upon which all scientific laws are based.
  5. Standard memberroyalchicken
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    27 May '05 23:49
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Actually, I think the philosophers have an edge on the scientist when it comes to reasoning:

    From Bertrand Russel regarding inductive (a.k.a. scientific) arguments:
    All inductive arguments in the last resort reduce themselves to the following form: "If this is true, that is true: now that is true, therefore this is true." This argument is, of co ...[text shortened]... t be fundamentally different from the argument upon which all scientific laws are based.
    You've taken the quote out of context. Russell is not describing inductive argument as equivalent to confusing the conditional with the biconditional as your example does. What he means is that if A implies B, then the occurence of B gives us evidence in favour of the claim that A is true; this depends on the actual content of A and B. From a strictly logical point of view, you are correct, but when we consider the content of A and B we can make inferences in this way (in fact, parts of Bayesian probability formalise this idea). Several authors have written on this idea, one of the best of whom is Irving J. Good, who actually defined a quantiative measure of evidence.

    Natural science is not a strictly logical pursuit.
  6. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    27 May '05 23:50
    Originally posted by Coletti
    That's true. 🙂

    But the idea that science is limited to the likes of biology and chemistry was not always the case. The first scientists were philosophers, Thales, Aristotle, Aquinas. I think it was Francis Bacon who started the movement to separate the natural sciences from the philosophical sciences. But I think the separation has gone too far. I t ...[text shortened]... t scientists if they had a better understanding of the philosophic roots of "natural" science.
    go back to sleep
  7. Standard membertelerion
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    27 May '05 23:52
    But why, then, do emminent scientist immediately reject and write off any anti-evolutionary arguments as religion (in the most derrogatory form)? They fight creationists or anyone who points out the shortfalls of evolutionary theory tooth and nail, often resorting to personal attacks on religious beliefs and credibility.

    They fight creationists tooth and nail when creationists point out the "faults" of evolution because the "faults" are not faults at all. Creationists nearly always mischaracterize or distort evidence and theory from evolution. If they instead offered good scientific, they would be commended by the science community.

    However, creationists have no real interest in honest scientific inquiry. Their goal is to develop another avenue to promote their religion. They go to any extreme to make empirical evidence comply with their a priori belief. They prey upon the biologically illiterate (most of us), promoting all sorts of falsehoods. They spend nearly all their time and resources criticizing evolution rather than conducting honest scientific research. They do this not in the hopes of advancing scientific knowledge, but rather in increasing the number of xtians in the world. So, scientist combat them because they corrupt and distort science.

    The fact is, most scientists DO reject anything related to supernaturalism right out of the box.

    This is false. Most scientist have some sort of supernatural belief. They just do not allow their religious beliefs to distort their empirical inquiry.

    I don't say that naturalism is wrong or that we should change science. I say that we must recognize science for what it is. We cannot immediately reject any other explanation, religious in nature or not, as unacceptable because they are not naturalistic.

    Again, few scientists reject supernatural arguments. They just realize that such arguments are religion. Therefore they are untestable or unfalsifiable, and thus, not science.
  8. Standard memberColetti
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    27 May '05 23:54
    Originally posted by royalchicken
    ...Natural science is not a strictly logical pursuit.
    Very true! 🙂

    And I think content would not changed the meaning of the quote, and since it is Russel who said it, it was Russel who must be confused.
  9. Standard memberColetti
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    27 May '05 23:55
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    go back to sleep
    I get sleepy every time you post. 😉
  10. Standard memberColetti
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    28 May '05 00:02
    Originally posted by royalchicken
    Conversely, it would behoove philosophers to learn a bit about the type of reasoning scientists find useful, as Alan Sokal hilariously demonstrated.
    Karl Popper:
    Although in science we do our best to find the truth, we are conscious of the fact that we can never be sure whether we have got it….In science there is no "knowledge," in the sense in which Plato and Aristotle understood the word, in the sense which implies finality; in science, we never have sufficient reason for the belief that we have attained the truth.…Einstein declared that his theory was false – he said that it would be a better approximation to the truth than Newton's, but he gave reasons why he would not, even if all predictions came out right, regard it as a true theory.

  11. Standard memberroyalchicken
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    28 May '05 00:04
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Karl Popper:
    Although in science we do our best to find the truth, we are conscious of the fact that we can never be sure whether we have got it….In science there is no "knowledge," in the sense in which Plato and Aristotle understood the word, in the sense which implies finality; in science, we never have sufficient reason for the belief that we ...[text shortened]... why he would not, even if all predictions came out right, regard it as a true theory.

    This is sensible and accurate. I'm talking more about philosophers in the postmodern tradition who spend their lives talking sh1t.

    Sokal published a paper consisting of complete nonsense in the journal 'Social Text'. Not only did it pass peer review, but it was praised.
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    28 May '05 00:09
    Originally posted by telerion
    [b]But why, then, do emminent scientist immediately reject and write off any anti-evolutionary arguments as religion (in the most derrogatory form)? They fight creationists or anyone who points out the shortfalls of evolutionary theory tooth and nail, often resorting to personal attacks on religious beliefs and credibility.

    They fight creationists t ...[text shortened]... arguments are religion. Therefore they are untestable or unfalsifiable, and thus, not science.[/b]
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    28 May '05 00:23
    Originally posted by telerion
    [b]But why, then, do emminent scientist immediately reject and write off any anti-evolutionary arguments as religion (in the most derrogatory form)? They fight creationists or anyone who points out the shortfalls of evolutionary theory tooth and nail, often resorting to personal attacks on religious beliefs and credibility.

    They fight creationists t ...[text shortened]... arguments are religion. Therefore they are untestable or unfalsifiable, and thus, not science.[/b]
    Your opinion is very interesting and I will take it to heart. My experience with challenging evolutionary theory have been to the contrary, however. I have brought interesting delimmas with evidence being either inexplicable or contrary to evolutionary doctrine. Others and myself who seek a more strongly supported theory within science are ridiculed and thrown into the creationist category. There are some "faults" if you want to call them that in current theory that need not be distorted by those terrible Christians. There are scientific alternatives to the black and white of Evolutionist (science) vs. Creationist (religion). I find that many scientists just don't want to hear it.

    In response to your last statement, I find myself asking whether Darwin's evolution is testable or falsifiable. I have discovered that it has more basis in philosphy than in empiracle evidence, so I question why naturalistic philosphy can have such a heavy influence on science whereas religion cannot.
  14. Standard membertelerion
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    28 May '05 00:59
    I have brought interesting delimmas with evidence being either inexplicable or contrary to evolutionary doctrine. Others and myself who seek a more strongly supported theory within science are ridiculed and thrown into the creationist category.

    That's unfortunate. Do you really bring empirically evidence that hasn't been accounted for previously? I only ask because the other evolution critiques here have only peddled dead criticisms, either honestly mistaken or with the intention of pulling a fast one over the unaware. If you do have empirical evidence that clearly contradicts evolutionary theory, then I'd like to hear it.

    It should be a fact that is already accepted and not simply an unanswered question (e.g. I don't see how x could have happened, therefore it didn't). Also check if www.talkorigins.org hasn't already discussed your objection. If they have then argue why the response is inconsistent with scientific knowledge (In contrast to "If we take it down to its root, it rests upon a philosophy that makes me uncomfortable." Everything in science from evolution to automechanics to forensics can be boiled down to naturalistic philosophy if you really think about it).

    There are some "faults" if you want to call them that in current theory that need not be distorted by those terrible Christians.

    They are certainly questions that specialists are debating in academic circles. Unfortunately, creationists and their disguised cousins, intelligent design theorists, choose not to engage them before an audience of informed scientists. Instead, they proclaim their ideas in church debates, videos, and media stunts. Their goal is not to improve science, but rather to win converts.

    There are scientific alternatives to the black and white of Evolutionist (science) vs. Creationist (religion). I find that many scientists just don't want to hear it.

    Perhaps your predecessors have made such a bad name for themselves that it will be harder for you. If you are persistent and and actually have good evidence, (i.e. you're studying and discovering the stuff yourself and not getting it from a hack) then eventually the scientific community will listen. If you turn out to be right, you'll have a Nobel Prize coming for sure.

    In response to your last statement, I find myself asking whether Darwin's evolution is testable or falsifiable.

    It certainly is. I think some critics today get frustrated when a question like "How could the human eye have evolved?" fails to make biologists recant. Unfortunately for those who feel uncomfortable with the theory, it has done such a good job of accounting for evidence from so many disciplines that it will probably take some new evidence that turns geology, biology, paleontology, genetics, and perhaps even cosmology on its head to put evolution to rest. Shoot even Behe and Dembski concede common descent.

    I have discovered that it has more basis in philosphy than in empiracle evidence, so I question why naturalistic philosphy can have such a heavy influence on science whereas religion cannot.

    Because a hypothesis about natural things (empirical things) can be tested. Hypothesis about supernatural things (religion) cannot. You can call that a bias toward naturalistic philosophy if you like. Really it is simply a matter of practicality. If any supernatural untestable claim were given the same weight as natural testable claims, then every scientist would become nothing more then a myth spinner, and science would be nothing but a collection of millions of unsupported untestable stories.
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    28 May '05 07:16
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]I guess the point I'm trying to get across is... I can agree that God created space, time and matter... but all the evidence that I can see points to a Universe greater than 6000 years old.

    What evidence?[/b]
    Well I ain't posting all of it. Would probably need a small library.

    Here's one: Re Analysis of Antarctic core samples
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/11/1110_041110_antarctic_ice.html

    Briefly - Antarctic ice-core samples contain a record of the earth's atmosphere going back up to 1 million years.

    Do you require any more?
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