1. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 13:352 edits
    .. , ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:20

    Righteousness = godliness and good works = love and charity to others

    These are the words of Jesus Christ. No righteousness means No entry into Gods Kingdom

    Here are the words of Jaywill and many others :

    "Just confess that you believe in Christ with your mouth you will be eternally saved .. Love, charity and good works are not important. You will still enter into the Kingdom. "

    Who do you trust? Christ or Jaywill?
  2. Standard membersonshiponline
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    14 Jun '13 14:14
    You really are the musician that only can play one note.

    I never contradicted that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees in order to enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

    The scope of eternal life is larger than the scope of entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

    This is like the relationship between say California and the US. To be in California is to be in the US. But one can be in the US and not be in California.

    So one can have eternal redemption and the gift of eternal life yet not enter into the kingdom of the heavens, especially in its stage of reward in the millennium.

    So I do not contradict the words of Jesus there. You may be making an absolute equivalence of entering into the kingdom of the heavens with receiving eternal life.

    This mistake is usually made by Bible readers who do not notice that the eternal age does NOT begin immediately after the second coming of Jesus to the earth. This mistake is usually made because Bible readers fail to notice that before the eternal age of the new heaven and the new earth there is a 1,000 year period of reward - which in Matthew would be the manifestation aspect of the kingdom of the heavens.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 14:181 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    You really are the musician that only can play one note.

    I never contradicted that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees in order to enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

    The scope of eternal life is larger than the scope of entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

    This is like the relationship between say California ...[text shortened]... od of reward - which in Matthew would be the manifestation aspect of the kingdom of the heavens.
    Regardless of the age, evil-doers and those Christ condemned cannot enter .. cannot enter into the 1000 yr reign as saints neither enter into the Kingdom of God therafter - the New Jerusalem referred to in Revelation.

    Your solution to your eternally saved doctrine is to claim that evil Christians will be punished and then enter the New Jerusalem .. and that is unscriptural.

    Thanks for the 'one note' compliment. I play the one note of the Gospel of Christ which leads to eternal life. You are playing the one note of Watchman Lee. You are on par with the JWs.
  4. Standard membersonshiponline
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    14 Jun '13 14:273 edits
    Righteousness = godliness and good works = love and charity to others


    Rajk999,

    One thing I would like to get clear up front with you.
    I was raised in the liberal branch of the Presbyterian denomination. That is not an evangelical heavy denomination. The major aspect of this kind of theology is "Social Gospel" - "What are you doing for the people ? What are you doing for the poor ? "

    This was the atmosphere in which I spent my young life. So when you come down on me about charity please understand that your theology I understand. And I do not undermine works of charity. Rather as I am able I follow the Lord in this manner also.

    I was raised in a liberal Presbyterian social gospel deeply involved with the Civil Rights movement. I know how the Old Testament prophets were used to "speak truth to power" and condemn self centered religiosity and all that good stuff.

    My upbringing was not Fundamentalist. I know you have an axe to grind here. I have no axe to grind. I just want an all-inclusive Christ. Our Christ has room enough for your burden to help the less advantaged.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 14:39
    Originally posted by sonship
    Righteousness = godliness and good works = love and charity to others


    Rajk999,

    One thing I would like to get clear up front with you.
    I was raised in the liberal branch of the Presbyterian denomination. That is not an evangelical heavy denomination. The major aspect of this kind of theology is "Social Gospel" - "What are you doin ...[text shortened]... lusive
    Christ. Our Christ has room enough for your burden to help the less advantaged.[/b]
    Exactly what does this mean in simple english :
    Our Christ has room enough for your burden to help the less advantaged.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 14:49
    Originally posted by sonship
    Righteousness = godliness and good works = love and charity to others


    Rajk999,

    One thing I would like to get clear up front with you.
    I was raised in the liberal branch of the Presbyterian denomination. That is not an evangelical heavy denomination. The major aspect of this kind of theology is "Social Gospel" - "What are you doin ...[text shortened]... lusive
    Christ. Our Christ has room enough for your burden to help the less advantaged.[/b]
    Its not about what YOU do Jaywill. Whether or not you follow Christ and do the good works is your business and its mine whether I do it or not.

    I am dealing what you are teaching and preaching. It is contrary to Christ.

    Christ said that good works is part and parcel of the process to eternal life.

    You are NOT saying that. Do you get it?
  7. Standard membersonshiponline
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    14 Jun '13 14:523 edits
    Exactly what does this mean in simple english :
    Our Christ has room enough for your burden to help the less advantaged


    By this I mean we can appreciate those aspects of Jesus' teaching without suppressing other aspects which He spoke.

    It means that we should not take one section of the words of Jesus to fight against another section of His words.

    It means that what is most important is that we realize how wide, how deep, how long, how broad the Son of God is. He expresses God in a multitude of ways all-inclusively, mutifariously.

    Paul preached as the gospel "the unsearchable riches of Christ" [b] -

    "To me, less that the least of all saints was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel." (Eph. 3:8)


    It is not so much important WHAT we do but IN WHOM we do it and BY WHOM we are empowered to do it.

    Jesus said to His disciples that He is the vine and they are the branches. Apart from abiding in Him they can do nothing.

    Now apart from Christ men can do a lot of things. But to God's will it will all amount to nothing. For apart from Him as the source of our life we can do nothing for God's will.

    Some disciples have a gift of giving. Others have a gift in another direction. Christ included both and other gifts -

    Look how he talks about the Body of Christ and its many members -

    For just as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function, So we who are many are one Body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

    And having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; or service, let us be faithful in that service; or he who teaches, in that teaching; or he who exhorts, in that exhortation; he who gives, in simplicity; he who leads, in diligence; he who shows mercy in cheerfulness." (Romans 11:4-8)
    Enough room in Christ means that Christians recognize that we are members with different functions. We must all abide in Christ and we must respect the different gifts and functions other members of His Body have.

    Is this clearer ?
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
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    14 Jun '13 15:04
    Are you claiming all men will be saved?

    The Instructor
  9. Standard membersonshiponline
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    14 Jun '13 15:061 edit
    Christ said that good works is part and parcel of the process to eternal life.

    You are NOT saying that. Do you get it?


    What I am not saying is that by works of the law flesh will be justified before God. Not in the age of the church.

    But this is not to say that when one is abiding in Christ it is not important to Him that we enjoy this aspect of His divine life. That is we flow out to others in His generosity being freed from anxiety and burdened to express His love.

    Now Matthew 25:32-46 is different. Those sheep who enter into eternal life do so because not knowing it, being kind to the persecuted Christians and Jews during the great tribulation was their kindness towards Christ their elder brother.

    There is no harm in borrowing the principle of Matthew 25:32-46 as a motivation to care for the least of the Lord's brothers. But in this age of the church you will not be saved because of those good works.

    Not so I said. So Jesus said. So says the New Testament many times.
    So says the basic book on Christian doctrine, the book of Romans.

    And actually so says the book of Matthew itself eventually when the Lord Jesus establishes the Lord's Supper just before His crucifixion:

    "And He took a cup and gave thanks and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you,

    For this is My blood of the COVENANT, which is being poured out for many for the FORGIVNESS OF SINS." (Matt. 26:27,28)


    Without the forgiveness of sins we sinners are lost. So this new covenant that Jesus established up front saves the lost sinner by the blood of His redemptive death. He shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins of the many who believe in Him.
  10. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    14 Jun '13 15:09
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Here are the words of Jaywill and many others :

    "Just confess that you believe in Christ with your mouth you will be eternally saved .. Love, charity and good works are not important. You will still enter into the Kingdom. "
    Please provide a link to jaywill saying "Love, charity and good works are not important".
  11. Standard membersonshiponline
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    14 Jun '13 15:10
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Are you claiming all men will be saved?

    The Instructor
    If this question is addressed to me, sonship, no I am not saying all men will be saved.
  12. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 15:13
    Originally posted by sonship
    Exactly what does this mean in simple english :
    Our Christ has room enough for your burden to help the less advantaged


    By this I mean we can appreciate those aspects of Jesus' teaching without suppressing other aspects which He spoke.

    It means that we should not take one section of the words of Jesus to fight against another sectio ...[text shortened]... the different gifts and functions other members of His Body have.

    Is this clearer ?
    Clearer but its YOU who supresses parts of what Christ said.

    Christ said that Faith and Baptism and good works will get you eternal life.

    Do you want quotes?

    You do not say that.
  13. Standard membersonshiponline
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    14 Jun '13 15:144 edits
    This was SwissGambit speaking. Don't let me get confused.

    Please provide a link to jaywill saying "Love, charity and good works are not important"

    Notice that I didn't say they had no importance.

    If I thought they had no importance then why would I have quoted to Rajk999 Romans 12:4-8 ?

    Notice the words - "he who gives, in simplicity"?
    Notice the words - "he who shows mercy, in cheerfulness" ?

    If I thought charity was not important to the Christian life I would have not quoted those words on their importance to the church life of Christians.
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 15:15
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Please provide a link to jaywill saying "Love, charity and good works are not important".
    There is a thread which someone started which asked about what gives eternal life and Jaywill quoted a passage which he said means that all you need to do is to confess Christ with your mouth. Jaywill concluded by saying that loving God or your neighbour is not stated by Paul. The implication is that it is not important.
  15. Standard membersonshiponline
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    14 Jun '13 15:20
    There is a thread which someone started which asked about what gives eternal life and Jaywill quoted a passage which he said means that all you need to do is to confess Christ with your mouth. Jaywill concluded by saying that loving God or your neighbour is not stated by Paul. The implication is that it is not important.


    The passage you are referring to which I have often quoted is in Romans 10 and says those who confess with the mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in the heart that God has raised them from the dead - will be saved.

    I believe that with all my heart. I preach it to others as Paul preached it to us in Romans 10.

    What is wrong with that passage? Why don't you like it? Is it because it mentioned nothing about giving alms to the poor in order to be saved ?

    That's too bad. But this is specific apostolic instruction on what to do in order to be saved. It is not the only thing the New Testament teaches if that is your beef.
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