1. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    03 Aug '12 14:40
    You will also make a mercy-seat of pure gold, and you will model two great winged creatures of beaten gold, you will make them at the two ends of the mercy seat.'

    http://www.bricktestament.com/exodus/the_ark_of_the_covenant/ex25_17.html


    Are those winged creatures graven images? Why or why not? How are they different from the golden calf?
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    03 Aug '12 15:11
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    You will also make a mercy-seat of pure gold, and you will model two great winged creatures of beaten gold, you will make them at the two ends of the mercy seat.'

    http://www.bricktestament.com/exodus/the_ark_of_the_covenant/ex25_17.html


    Are those winged creatures graven images? Why or why not? How are they different from the golden calf?
    The golden calf was an idol, an image to be worshipped as a representation of some pagan god.

    These are just adornments on the Ark (no doubt they have some unknown and untold purpose), not focus points for idol worship.
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    03 Aug '12 16:35
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    The golden calf was an idol, an image to be worshipped as a representation of some pagan god.

    These are just adornments on the Ark (no doubt they have some unknown and untold purpose), not focus points for idol worship.
    The ark was used as a focus for worship. Since it was not a god itself it must therefore have been an idol.
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
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    03 Aug '12 17:07
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The ark was used as a focus for worship. Since it was not a god itself it must therefore have been an idol.
    It may have been used as a focus of worship (as indicated by its presence in the holiest of holies in the Temple), but for the worship not of the Ark itself, but of the Living God. Since it contained the tablets the Ten Commandments were written on by God Himself, it was surely a sacred icon. But an idol? No, that wasn't the point of it at all.
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    03 Aug '12 17:10
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    It may have been used as a focus of worship (as indicated by its presence in the holiest of holies in the Temple), but for the worship not of the Ark itself, but of the Living God. Since it contained the tablets the Ten Commandments were written on by God Himself, it was surely a sacred icon. But an idol? No, that wasn't the point of it at all.
    that's essentially what an idol is: some object that represents a living god.
  6. SubscriberSuzianne
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    03 Aug '12 17:17
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    that's essentially what an idol is: some object that represents a living god.
    Yeah, I just said the Ark was not an idol, since it was merely a godly item, a sacred icon, and not a "representation" of the Living God.

    "Yeah, see this box? That's what our God looks like."

    "No, really."
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    03 Aug '12 17:38
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Yeah, I just said the Ark was not an idol, since it was merely a godly item, a sacred icon, and not a "representation" of the Living God.

    "Yeah, see this box? That's what our God looks like."

    "No, really."
    So graven images that don't look like the god that they are used to worship are OK?
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    03 Aug '12 19:13
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So graven images that don't look like the god that they are used to worship are OK?
    The "graven images" are actually of cherubim, or angels of God. I really do not see how one could confuse these for God, or worship them, instead of God.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    03 Aug '12 19:18
    What's even more interesting than all this "graven image" talk is this verse, from the same chapter as the OP.

    Exd 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which [are] upon the ark of the testimony, of all [things] which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

    Fascinating. Do you suppose that the Ark was actually a radio receiver tuned to receive regular radio transmissions from God?
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    04 Aug '12 00:56
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    What's even more interesting than all this "graven image" talk is this verse, from the same chapter as the OP.

    Exd 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which [are] upon the ark of the testimony, of all [things] which I will give thee in commandment unto the child ...[text shortened]... the Ark was actually a radio receiver tuned to receive regular radio transmissions from God?
    i think the ark was a con job which the levite priests used as some kind of supposed 'oracle' from which they could pretend to receive commands from god.
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    04 Aug '12 00:581 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Yeah, I just said the Ark was not an idol, since it was merely a godly item, a sacred icon, and not a "representation" of the Living God.

    "Yeah, see this box? That's what our God looks like."

    "No, really."
    yes, but you said it is a focal point of worship. that's what idols are. people who worshiped gods using idols didn't really worship the idols. the idols were just focal points with which they could communicate with their gods. this is the same as the description of the ark.
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    04 Aug '12 12:532 edits
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    yes, but you said it is a focal point of worship. that's what idols are. people who worshiped gods using idols didn't really worship the idols. the idols were just focal points with which they could communicate with their gods. this is the same as the description of the ark.
    The definition used by the Holy Bible is number 1 and 2 below:

    idol (noun)

    1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a material object, esp a carved image, that is worshipped as a god
    2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity Judaism any being (other than the one God) to which divine honour is paid
    3. a person who is revered, admired, or highly loved

    Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

    P.S. Therefore, the images on the ark of the covenant or the image of the cross one might wear as a necklace is not considered as idols in Judism and Christianity.
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    04 Aug '12 13:48
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    You will also make a mercy-seat of pure gold, and you will model two great winged creatures of beaten gold, you will make them at the two ends of the mercy seat.'

    http://www.bricktestament.com/exodus/the_ark_of_the_covenant/ex25_17.html


    Are those winged creatures graven images? Why or why not? How are they different from the golden calf?
    It's a little late for this kind of feed back. 😛
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    04 Aug '12 14:48
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    i think the ark was a con job which the levite priests used as some kind of supposed 'oracle' from which they could pretend to receive commands from god.
    I think it is more likely that Moses was the con man and the levite preists were victums of the con along with all the other people.
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    04 Aug '12 15:12
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I think it is more likely that Moses was the con man and the levite preists were victums of the con along with all the other people.
    ???

    Who are you and what have you done with RJH?
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