Explain JUSTICE in the light of eternal suffering

Originally posted by twhitehead
But that is merely stating that it is so. It is not actually making sense - even to those who believe that it is so. The same applies to Bible verses. The fact that the Bible states something is so, does not make that something sensiblehe

Here we come to the heart of debating - and why so many debates on RHP totally break down.

Before debating anything, one has to agree on the Frame of Reference.

For example, it is clearly useless (but frequently practiced, nonetheless) for somebody to quote Bible verses to support an argument against an opponent who does NOT believe that the Bible is inspired.

However, if two parties both accept that the Bible is verbally and literally inspired, then they can, and do, have a lively discussion about nuances and interpretation and cross-references, like RJH and sonship often do.

There is no point whatsoever in you calling somebody to task to claim that the Bible is illogical, if that person believes it to be divinely inspired!

So what I would say is to chose your boundaries, agree to what is common ground, and then debate what is inside that Frame of Refence.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe it is the refusal to accept the authority of God and His Christ over their lives.

And this you see as a crime which befits the perpetrators being burnt alive for all eternity?

His being God, in Christ Jesus, the Head of the Church, a salvific Body of believers.

You might ask what is the difference between 9866543 days in purgatory and spending an eternity with a scorched soul. I think the answer number one is the knowledge of eventually being in the presence of an infinite loving God, and number two is that is not the most diabolical number which if I'm not mistaken has 13 zeros, some 6's and is palindromic. If you are really interested read Dante's Inferno although I imagine it is a dark reality.

Originally posted by CalJust
There is no point whatsoever in you calling somebody to task to claim that the Bible is illogical, if that person believes it to be divinely inspired!

You have clearly misunderstood me. I have not said the Bible is illogical. I have said that stating that it is so does not constitute an explanation of why something is so - even if it genuinely is so.
Something is sensible if you can understand the 'why' of it. Stating something 'just is' does not make it sensible.

Originally posted by Of Ants and Imps
You might ask what is the difference between 9866543 days in purgatory and spending an eternity with a scorched soul. I think the answer number one is the knowledge of eventually being in the presence of an infinite loving God, and number two is that is not the most diabolical number which if I'm not mistaken has 13 zeros, some 6's and is palindromic. If you are really interested read Dante's Inferno although I imagine it is a dark reality.

Who are you relying to and what are you talking about?

Originally posted by Of Ants and Imps
His being God, in Christ Jesus, the Head of the Church, a salvific Body of believers.

Ditto?

Originally posted by CalJust
We are always told that Christ DID make atonement for the sins of ALL THE WORLD, but in order to take effect, one has to ACCEPT him and his offer.

That is where the fallacy lies.

Let's say you owe me $100, and refuse to pay, even slandering me and saying that the debt is bogus.

However, a third party, say wolfgang, pays me the money , entirely out ...[text shortened]... aped, that they will be overcome by gratefullness, and that then every knee will bow in worship.

One of the best posts of the truth of the gospel; simple and well phrased.

Originally posted by CalJust
It makes sense to certain theologians.

The argument goes something like this:

God is holy and just. He made men to worship him and not sin.

Men sinned.

So God, because of his holiness, is COMPELLED punish them. If he did NOT, that would be against his character of holiness and justice. It would be impossible for him to just : turn a blind eye. ...[text shortened]... ". But, as I said before, you then face a host of problems with other, contradictory scriptures.

The point that most seem to miss Is that the punishment for disobedience (sin) is death not torture forever. That was the original penalty given by God in the garden of Eden. Genesis 2:16,17 says, "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die."
Genesis 3:19 adds, "For dust you are and to dust you will return."
There is no provision for eternal burning in God's words.
The eternal torture is a fabrication (lie) that Satan has devised through the centuries. He bases it on twisting Scriptures like Revelation 20:14,15, "..the lake of fire..". Fire destroys completely. Whatever is destroyed in this way is gone forever and cannot be reconstituted.
i.e. burn a book and try to restore it

case closed.

Originally posted by divegeester
Justice:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice#Metaphysics_and_divine_justice

"Let us reason together" says The Lord; so let's do that.

Can any Christian here who is a proponent of the eternal suffering doctrine please explain to me how the justice of god and the mercy of god work together to come up with a punishment that involves the perpetu ...[text shortened]...
What crime has this person committed that the justice of God demands this level of retribution?

It doesn't make any sense, does it? So, maybe it isn't true. Many lies have been told about the true God down thru the centuries. And, as people say, if you tell a lie enough times, people believe it.
I don't see eternal torture anywhere in the Bible except where people have twisted the scriptures to their own ends.
So, I don't believe in eternal torture.
God says at Jeremiah 32:35, "Furthermore, they built the high places of Baal in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, something that I had not commanded them and that had never come into my heart to do such a detestable thing...".
It seems a fair conclusion that God hates putting people in the fire.

Originally posted by roigam
The point that most seem to miss Is that the punishment for disobedience (sin) is death not torture forever. That was the original penalty given by God in the garden of Eden. Genesis 2:16,17 says, "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from i ...[text shortened]... n this way is gone forever and cannot be reconstituted.
i.e. burn a book and try to restore it

So your god was ok with A&E as long as they behaved like the good little robots they were. Get self consciousness and now they are doomed.

Answer me this then: Why did this alleged god allegedly give A&E BRAINS in the first place if they were not allowed to use them, Hmnm?

Originally posted by twhitehead
A much more important question that maybe you could have a go answering first, is what crime demands retribution of any kind whatsoever? What purpose does retribution serve?
I can understand it in evolutionary terms, and I can understand it in societal terms, but I have never heard a satisfactory explanation for its use in any other context - such as in an afterlife.

Balance.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So your god was ok with A&E as long as they behaved like the good little robots they were. Get self consciousness and now they are doomed.

Answer me this then: Why did this alleged god allegedly give A&E BRAINS in the first place if they were not allowed to use them, Hmnm?

Adam named all the animals. I doubt there is anyone who can do that today.
He had a good brain and used it.
We are made in God's image.
He was not a robot. God only gave him one harmless rule to obey.
Adam chose not to and that's why we have the mess we do today.
Evenso God loved us enough to make a way out for us.
I'm thankful!

Originally posted by roigam

It seems a fair conclusion that God hates putting people in the fire.

Excuse me my brother. God may hate to do it.
God will do something that He hates to do if He HAS to do so.

In Revelation 16:8 concerning the followers of Antichrist -

"And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to burn men with fire. And men were burned with great heat, and they BLASPHEMED the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they DID NOT REPENT so as to give Him glory. "( Rev. 16:9)

I don't doubt that God hated to do so. But they would not repent. They blasphemed. They enjoyed opposing God more than they valued being not burned with fire.

God will do what God hates to do if He has to.

Christ as the Son of God came to be judged for my sins.
And this not just by whip and nails of Roman soldiers.
But in a mysterious outpouring of God's wrath for sin upon a Substitute.

But some will not repent and will not give God glory and will not recognize His authority or His love.

"And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain.

And BLASPHEMED the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they DID NOT REPENT of their works." (vs.10,11)

One who has perfect self control will do even what one hates to do if it is called for.