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    28 Oct '14 19:391 edit
    Justice:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice#Metaphysics_and_divine_justice

    "Let us reason together" says The Lord; so let's do that.

    Can any Christian here who is a proponent of the eternal suffering doctrine please explain to me how the justice of god and the mercy of god work together to come up with a punishment that involves the perpetual sustenance of a human being/soul in a state of created eternal burning in agony.

    What crime has this person committed that the justice of God demands this level of retribution?
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    28 Oct '14 19:41
    On the other hand, one could just accept that the doctrine is error and move quietly on.
  3. Cape Town
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    28 Oct '14 20:34
    Originally posted by divegeester
    What crime has this person committed that the justice of God demands this level of retribution?
    A much more important question that maybe you could have a go answering first, is what crime demands retribution of any kind whatsoever? What purpose does retribution serve?
    I can understand it in evolutionary terms, and I can understand it in societal terms, but I have never heard a satisfactory explanation for its use in any other context - such as in an afterlife.
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    28 Oct '14 20:591 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Justice:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice#Metaphysics_and_divine_justice

    "Let us reason together" says The Lord; so let's do that.

    Can any Christian here who is a proponent of the eternal suffering doctrine please explain to me how the justice of god and the mercy of god work together to come up with a punishment that involves the perpetu ...[text shortened]...
    What crime has this person committed that the justice of God demands this level of retribution?
    I think we have to think in terms of a soul being fixed in a state of perpetual offense against God.

    Eternal suffering probably accompanies eternal sinning. Do you think God is obliged to allow the endless flow of sin from the lips and acts of the lost?

    Some therefore account eternal suffering to accompany infinite sinning.
    If during the reign of mercy the rebel has hurled insults against God how much more during a reign of judgment.

    The acts of the past have had judgement pronounced upon them at the last judgment.

    "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works." (Rev. 20:12)

    As best as I can understand, there are scrolls of their deeds while living and the singular book of life.

    Footnote 15(1) of the Recovery Version comments:

    And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.(v.15)

    The perishing unbelievers will be judged according to the scrolls, which are a record of their works (vv.12-13), but they will be cast into the lake of fire according to the book of life. This indicates that they are condemned by the Lord because of their evil deeds but perish because of their unbelief, which issues in their not having their names written in the book of life. Not believing in the Lord Jesus is the unique in that causes people to perish (John 16:9).


    The deeds of the past are finite. An infallible record God possesses of all deeds of men.

    If the character is fixed forever in wickedness there must be an everlasting reason for punishment.

    "In short, the lost are doubly condemned; for acts against the law of God and their own conscience; and because their character are always full of sin. The wicked are condemned because of their acts and character jointly. They are punished because of their evil nature as children of the devil, being tares and not wheat ; for their acts as "doers of iniquity:" (Matt. 13:38, 41) - Robert Govette


    Possibly then the confinement to one's own affairs through suffering will restrict the lost from perpetuating more crimes upon each other. The suffering may act as a restriction. Yet, if words of blasphemy proceeded from them when God was extending a longsuffering time of forebearance towards them, giving them time to believe in the Son of God, the insults toward God must only intensify once the sentence of separation from God is enacted.

    I think possibly the existence of black holes may be a kind of warning to the modern man. One closed to God and His Son collapse in upon themselves in abject darkness of self loathing from which escape is impossible.

    One might ask "But can't God make it as if they had never sinned at all?"

    He did. And this was rejected by them. So we need to come to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for hiding in His merit and standing upon His finished work of eternal redemption.

    And we need to receive His Spirit into ours that His salvation can conform us to His image as many sons to the Firstborn Son of God.
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    28 Oct '14 21:02
    As His mercy is everlasting His justice is also everlasting. Both are eternal attributes of God.
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    28 Oct '14 23:35
    Originally posted by sonship
    I think we have to think in terms of a soul being fixed in a state of perpetual offense against God.

    Eternal suffering probably accompanies eternal sinning. Do you think God is obliged to allow the endless flow of sin from the lips and acts of the lost?

    Some therefore account eternal suffering to accompany infinite sinning.
    If during the reign of ...[text shortened]... to ours that His salvation can conform us to His image as many sons to the Firstborn Son of God.
    "unique in" was a typo which should have read "unique sin".
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    29 Oct '14 00:271 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    I think we have to think in terms of a soul being fixed in a state of perpetual offense against God.
    You believe a God figure has created a life form ~ humans ~ whose default setting is to be tortured by incineration after they die UNLESS they believe in the God figure?
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    29 Oct '14 03:55
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I can understand it in evolutionary terms, and I can understand it in societal terms, but I have never heard a satisfactory explanation for its use in any other context - such as in an afterlife.
    I don't think I know either.
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    29 Oct '14 03:57
    Originally posted by sonship
    I think we have to think in terms of a soul being fixed in a state of perpetual offense against God.

    Eternal suffering probably accompanies eternal sinning. Do you think God is obliged to allow the endless flow of sin from the lips and acts of the lost?

    Some therefore account eternal suffering to accompany infinite sinning.
    If during the reign of ...[text shortened]... to ours that His salvation can conform us to His image as many sons to the Firstborn Son of God.
    The open question from the OP is:

    [b]What crime has this person committed that the justice of God demands this level of retribution?/b]
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    29 Oct '14 05:48
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Justice:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice#Metaphysics_and_divine_justice

    "Let us reason together" says The Lord; so let's do that.

    Can any Christian here who is a proponent of the eternal suffering doctrine please explain to me how the justice of god and the mercy of god work together to come up with a punishment that involves the perpetu ...[text shortened]...
    What crime has this person committed that the justice of God demands this level of retribution?
    I believe it is the refusal to accept the authority of God and His Christ over their lives.
  11. Standard membershavixmir
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    29 Oct '14 06:48
    It would seem to me that Christians don't need a system of law.
    Judge not, lest thy be judged.
    Who are we to second guess the will of God?

    If someone needs punishing, God will do that.
  12. Standard memberCalJust
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    29 Oct '14 07:153 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    One might ask "But can't God make it as if they had never sinned at all?"
    He did. And this was rejected by them. So we need to come to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for hiding in His merit and standing upon His finished work of eternal redemption.
    We are always told that Christ DID make atonement for the sins of ALL THE WORLD, but in order to take effect, one has to ACCEPT him and his offer.

    That is where the fallacy lies.

    Let's say you owe me $100, and refuse to pay, even slandering me and saying that the debt is bogus.

    However, a third party, say wolfgang, pays me the money , entirely out of his own volition.

    Then THAT DEBT IS CANCELLED, and does not exist anymore, whether you like it or not. If you were to ever come to me to try to give me the money, I would say: Sorry, there is no debt, don't know what you are talking about.

    Same as if someone esle, say an ACCUSER, comes and says: sonship owes CJ $100 and refuses to pay! CJ will say: That debt was paid.

    You can't pay a debt twice, at least not honestly and legally.

    And it is not too far fetched to consider that anyone who suddenly realises AFTER THE FACT, that the debt that they not even realised existed, was paid, and the horrible fate which they thereby escaped, that they will be overcome by gratefullness, and that then every knee will bow in worship.
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    29 Oct '14 07:34
    Originally posted by CalJust
    And it is not too far fetched to consider that anyone who suddenly realises AFTER THE FACT, that the debt that they not even realised existed, was paid, and the horrible fate which they thereby escaped, that they will be overcome by gratefullness, and that then every knee will bow in worship.
    It all sounds quite sensible until you actually think about it.

    What are these debts that:
    a) are owed to someone for your sins?
    b) can be paid off by a third party?

    As I have said above, in the context of society and a human criminal justice system it makes sense, but in the context of a human / god relationship, it doesn't make sense.
  14. Standard memberCalJust
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    29 Oct '14 07:551 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    As I have said above, in the context of society and a human criminal justice system it makes sense, but in the context of a human / god relationship, it doesn't make sense.
    It makes sense to certain theologians.

    The argument goes something like this:

    God is holy and just. He made men to worship him and not sin.

    Men sinned.

    So God, because of his holiness, is COMPELLED punish them. If he did NOT, that would be against his character of holiness and justice. It would be impossible for him to just : turn a blind eye.

    But he loves mankind, so does not want to see them punished. He therefore sent his son to take the punishment in his stead.

    BUT (and here lies the conundrum) man has to ACCEPT this reprieve, and hence my post.

    That is it in a nutshell. There are many Bible verses to prove all these things, such as:
    The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal ife.
    The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    If you confess ..... you shall be saved.
    Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.
    etc
    The people who take these verses literally, make a strong case for God's judgement of "unbelievers". But, as I said before, you then face a host of problems with other, contradictory scriptures.
  15. Cape Town
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    29 Oct '14 09:36
    Originally posted by CalJust
    It makes sense to certain theologians.

    So God, because of his holiness, is COMPELLED punish them.
    But that is merely stating that it is so. It is not actually making sense - even to those who believe that it is so. The same applies to Bible verses. The fact that the Bible states something is so, does not make that something sensible.

    Every child knows that 'because it just is' simply isn't a satisfactory answer despite the fact that most parents try to get away with it.
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