roigam: It seems a fair conclusion that God hates putting people in the fire.

Originally posted by sonship
Excuse me my brother. God may hate to do it.
God will do something that He hates to do if He HAS to do so.

God may hate to do it? Meaning he hates His own "perfect justice", as you have described it? Seems an odd thing to say. And ... God will do something that He hates to do if He has to do so? Meaning God has no choice other than to torture people for eternity? No choice? Again, it seems a very odd thing to say.

Originally posted by roigam
It doesn't make any sense, does it? So, maybe it isn't true. Many lies have been told about the true God down thru the centuries. And, as people say, if you tell a lie enough times, people believe it.
I don't see eternal torture anywhere in the Bible except where people have twisted the scriptures to their own ends.
So, I don't believe in eternal torture. ...[text shortened]... h a detestable thing...".
It seems a fair conclusion that God hates putting people in the fire.

I understand that it is everlasting torment or punishment. I don't recall anything said about eternal torture. Perhaps you are looking at an incorrect translation. I understand torture as being different from a just punishment.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I understand that it is everlasting torment or punishment. I don't recall anything said about eternal torture. Perhaps you are looking at an incorrect translation. I understand torture as being different from a just punishment.

So you would assert that being burned for eternity is not a form of torture?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I understand torture as being different from a just punishment.

Leaving aside the word "eternal".

How you translate the burning "forever", "everlasting", or even, just a very long time, for not believing in something, as being as you call it "just [justice/righteous] punishment?

Originally posted by FMF
God may hate to do it? Meaning he hates His own "perfect justice", as you have described it? Seems an odd thing to say. And ... God will do something that He hates to do if He [b]has to do so? Meaning God has no choice other than to torture people for eternity? No choice? Again, it seems a very odd thing to say.[/b]

God may hate to do it? Meaning he hates His own "perfect justice", as you have described it? Seems an odd thing to say.

No it doesn't.

And ... God will do something that He hates to do if He has to do so? Meaning God has no choice other than to torture people for eternity? No choice? Again, it seems a very odd thing to say.

Solitary confinement is considered by those in it as torture.
They may smear feces over themselves and go crazily dangerous there.

But with man's imperfect justice, they are so dangerously anti law and order there is nothing else that can be done with them. They must be isolated which they consider torture.

Many criminals consider their punishment is torture.
If the word of God warns in no uncertain terms that punishment is punishment, it is understandable. There is absolutely no ambiguity about it.

I don't have to describe the temperature of a "lake of fire" nor do I have to measure the decibel level of the screams. It is enough to get the overall idea that the lost will not want to be there.

And that God communicates this to us in pictures, literal or figurative, in which it is impossible misunderstand the main point, for that I am thankful.

So we need salvation in Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
I don't have to describe the temperature of a [b]"lake of fire" nor do I have to measure the decibel level of the screams. It is enough to get the overall idea that the lost will not want to be there. .[/b]

No one has asked you to describe it. No one has asked you to measure the screams. What you are being asked is to provide some sort of credible moral underpinning for the grotesque things you happen to believe is "perfect" ~ other than your various 'might is right' assertions [or words to that effect], and your 'I read it in a book and here are quotes from that book' circular logic.

Originally posted by sonship
If the word of God warns in no uncertain terms that punishment is punishment, it is understandable. There is absolutely no ambiguity about it.

An absolute lack of ambiguity does not render something morally sound.

Originally posted by FMF
An absolute lack of ambiguity does not render something morally sound.

I didn't say it did.

Originally posted by sonship
I didn't say it did.

You said: "If the word of God warns in no uncertain terms that punishment is punishment, it is understandable. There is absolutely no ambiguity about it. "

What does this have to do with the moral basis or validity of the punishment?

Originally posted by FMF
You said: "[b]If the word of God warns in no uncertain terms that punishment is punishment, it is understandable. There is absolutely no ambiguity about it. "

What does this have to do with the moral basis or validity of the punishment?[/b]

What does this have to do with the moral basis or validity of the punishment?

I can see the moral basis of eternal separation from the eternal Source of all being, all righteousness, all goodness.

What I cannot see at this point, I expect to see once the process of conformation to the image of the Son of God is complete in me.

I do not say I am at that point today. I know that I am not.
So certain aspects about the matter of eternal perdition baffle me.

I expect that as God's transformation of the saved into the image of Christ is consummated what we do not appreciate of God's will by then we will understand. If my realization is partial now I expect it will be complete in the age of eternity.

I expect to realize that the damned deserve to be where they are.
I expect to realize if God is just it must be so.
I expect to realize the lost are fit for such a thing.
I expect to realize that it is just they should be kept there.
I expect to see that the mischief such would produce would be incalculably bad for the rest of those in that age.

For the other place they are unfit of their own choice.

Originally posted by sonship
I can see the moral basis of eternal separation from the eternal Source of all being, all righteousness, all goodness..

What is this moral basis?

Originally posted by FMF
What is this moral basis?

The same uncreated One who is the ground of all being and the Creator of the universe. The same One who in Christ shed the blood of His incarnation that sinners be redeemed from the curse of the breaking of His law.

I subscribe to the Bible.

Now I am going to leave for now the subject of damnation forever.
Continued argument here is not necessary.

Originally posted by sonship
The same uncreated One who is the ground of all being and the Creator of the universe. The same One who in Christ shed the blood of His incarnation that sinners be redeemed from the curse of the breaking of His law.

I subscribe to the Bible.

Now I am going to leave for now the subject of damnation forever.
Continued argument here is not necessary.

Simply asserting His "all righteousness, all goodness" doesn't work when even you admit (according to your own ideology/superstition) He tortures, is torturing, has tortured, and will continue to torture billions of people for eternity... for lack of belief ~ as an act of vindictiveness, wrath and revenge ~ does not somehow transform His acts into "perfect justice" or "goodness" or "perfect morality". Your terminology is Orwellian. You have made no case.