1. Account suspended
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    14 Apr '11 14:204 edits
    (James 2:26) Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works
    is dead.

    This is a truly staggering assertion, for what does it purport to say, other than, if
    your form of worship, whether you are a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever,
    unless your faith can be demonstrated in a tangible way, by the outworking of some
    purpose, it is absolutely useless.

    Consider the example of Ua1, who as far as I can discern, has his own form of
    worship in which through the outworking of his faith, or ideology in this case, it finds
    expression in acts of compassion towards others. We also find this idea in terms
    like mercy, for mercy in order to be operative must have an object on which it can
    express its tendency, in other words, it cannot be passively expressed.

    How can one determine if their faith, or ideology is alive and well, simply by looking
    for tangible evidence of the outworking of its expression, otherwise, just as the
    body without spirit is dead, so is faith without works.
  2. Standard memberRJHinds
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    14 Apr '11 15:17
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    (James 2:26) Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works
    is dead.

    This is a truly staggering assertion, for what does it purport to say, other than, if
    your form of worship, whether you are a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever,
    unless your faith can be demonstrated in a tangible way, by the outworking of some ...[text shortened]... its expression, otherwise, just as the
    body without spirit is dead, so is faith without works.
    I think I agee with you; but I don't understand the
    meaning of you last sentence.
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    14 Apr '11 15:291 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I think I agee with you; but I don't understand the
    meaning of you last sentence.
    its simply a litmus test for faith, or any ideology for that matter, that by looking at the
    outworking of its expression, or otherwise as the case may be, one can determine
    its nature.
  4. Standard memberfinnegan
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    14 Apr '11 15:44
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    its simply a litmus test for faith, or any ideology for that matter, that by looking at the
    outworking of its expression, or otherwise as the case may be, one can determine
    its nature.
    or otherwise as the case may be

    Pretty clear and concise then; glad you've thought this through.

    Let's take an example. Can I judge the Christian religion by the way Christians have behaved through history or only the way the right Christians that you like and agree with behave?
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    14 Apr '11 15:55
    Originally posted by finnegan
    [b] or otherwise as the case may be

    Pretty clear and concise then; glad you've thought this through.

    Let's take an example. Can I judge the Christian religion by the way Christians have behaved through history or only the way the right Christians that you like and agree with behave?[/b]
    If I remember correctly, it is recorded somewhere in the
    Holy Bible, that you shall know them by their works.
  6. Standard memberua41
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    14 Apr '11 15:582 edits
    There's a thing in psychology they talk about- cognitive dissonance. Essentially where the actions and the ideals are in a conflict with each other giving rise to internal stress etc. This can be associated with calling out your shadows, where the things you're critical about in others tends to be highlighting the problems within your own psyche. Or, "talking the talk, but can he walk the walk?"

    I've always viewed (one of the aspects of) one of the concepts in taoism, wu-wei, as no separation between motive and action. Where action is a direct manifestation of motive and vice versa. Actions will speak for themselves.

    In the Bible, the Church of Laodicea is considered to be full of lukewarms. I know Paul wrote a letter to them and that they are mentioned in Revelation, however I forget from whom the statement is sourced. It's something like "I wish you were either hot or cold, for as lukewarm I know not where you stand and it makes me sick"

    edit- ok so Paul's letter to Laodicea isn't actually in the Bible, but he still does mention it in Colossians. Either way, the message draws parallels with each other, calling out the church to be more steadfast and harmonious in God.
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    14 Apr '11 15:59
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    If I remember correctly, it is recorded somewhere in the
    Holy Bible, that you shall know them by their works.
    That might have been, "You shall know them by their
    fruits", which is a similiar idea.
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    14 Apr '11 16:18
    Originally posted by finnegan
    [b] or otherwise as the case may be

    Pretty clear and concise then; glad you've thought this through.

    Let's take an example. Can I judge the Christian religion by the way Christians have behaved through history or only the way the right Christians that you like and agree with behave?[/b]
    first of all, it is necessary for you to define, in clear terms what a Christian is, i say, its
    one who follows the teachings of Christ, that being the case, then you can readily
    determine whether those who profess to be Christians actually are, or whether they
    are something else, to the degree that they apply and adhere to the teachings of
    Christ.
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    14 Apr '11 16:191 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    That might have been, "You shall know them by their
    fruits", which is a similiar idea.
    yes indeed, here is the verse that is in your mind,

    (Matthew 7:16-20) . . .Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles,
    do they?  Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces
    worthless fruit;  a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree
    produce fine fruit.  Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into
    the fire.  Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.
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    14 Apr '11 16:24
    Originally posted by ua41
    There's a thing in psychology they talk about- cognitive dissonance. Essentially where the actions and the ideals are in a conflict with each other giving rise to internal stress etc. This can be associated with calling out your shadows, where the things you're critical about in others tends to be highlighting the problems within your own psyche. Or, "talking t ...[text shortened]... ls with each other, calling out the church to be more steadfast and harmonious in God.
    actually you are correct Ua1, but its Christ's words to the congregation in Laodicea
    , here are the verses,

    (Revelation 3:15-16)  ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you
    were cold or else hot.  So, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am
    going to vomit you out of my mouth.
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    14 Apr '11 16:34
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    (James 2:26) Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works
    is dead.

    This is a truly staggering assertion, for what does it purport to say, other than, if
    your form of worship, whether you are a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever,
    unless your faith can be demonstrated in a tangible way, by the outworking of some ...[text shortened]... its expression, otherwise, just as the
    body without spirit is dead, so is faith without works.
    A couple of thoughts: As a young boy, I was taught that salvation requires both faith and good works, but later I was taught that the good works would come naturally from those who had faith, and so were not really a separate requirement. I suspect that the subtle distinction would have been lost on my young ears. I also suspect that this distinction allows for death-bed conversions where the converted is not capable of any "works" at all. Is this a reasonable understanding of the idea?

    Second, apparently, some people think good works without faith is either impossible, or if it is possible, doesn't lead to salvation. Assuming it is possible, some people distinguish between the fates of the doers of good works who have been exposed to the true faith, and the doers of good works who have not, such that they have different fates. What do those of various faiths have to say about this?
  12. Standard memberblack beetle
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    14 Apr '11 17:39
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    (James 2:26) Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works
    is dead.

    This is a truly staggering assertion, for what does it purport to say, other than, if
    your form of worship, whether you are a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever,
    unless your faith can be demonstrated in a tangible way, by the outworking of some ...[text shortened]... its expression, otherwise, just as the
    body without spirit is dead, so is faith without works.
    Yes
    😵
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    14 Apr '11 17:49
    weeeeeeeeee 😵
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    14 Apr '11 18:11
    Faith does not = salvation it is the means of access to it. Some have great faith and perform miracles other have little faith.

    Faith unto salvation is given by God in equal measure to all and any who call on his name, the name given amongst men by which they are saved "Jesus". Once you belong to Christ nothing can deliver you from him. In fact God said "nothing can deliver from my hand"

    Good works are required in obedience to God, NEVER as a requirement for salvation. Do not be deceived you cannot earn your salvation it is a gift of God for anyone.
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    14 Apr '11 19:15
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Faith does not = salvation it is the means of access to it. Some have great faith and perform miracles other have little faith.

    Faith unto salvation is given by God in equal measure to all and any who call on his name, the name given amongst men by which they are saved "Jesus". Once you belong to Christ nothing can deliver you from him. In fact Go ...[text shortened]... alvation. Do not be deceived you cannot earn your salvation it is a gift of God for anyone.
    yes indeed, but we are not talking of salvation, we are talking about faith without works.
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