Originally posted by avalanchethecat
What about works without faith, the worthy pagans?

In Hindu theology,good works will earn merit for the person,whether he/she is a believer or not. Why,even a sinner will be redeemed,if he performs good work. It is said that just as surely as you will burn your hand if you touch a burning ember unknowingly, you will earn merit for all good work,done unknowingly.

Originally posted by finnegan
Because your source for the words of Jesus is the Gospel written by Paul's converts. Paul by your own account was the earliest source in the NT.

And I told you (or someone recently here) before that Paul's passed on what he had RECEIVED. I gave the reference too.

All we know about the teaching of Jesus is from the documents of the New Testament. You don't want to use those documents apparently.

Let me help you a little.

Justification by faith? That Paul's invention?
Sanctification? That in Christ. Paul's invention ?

Co death with Christ? Something NEW of Paul ?

C'mon have you read Romans lately ?

Originally posted by jaywill
And I told you (or someone recently here) before that Paul's passed on what he had RECEIVED. I gave the reference too.

All we know about the teaching of Jesus is from the documents of the New Testament. You don't want to use those documents apparently.

Let me help you a little.

Justification by faith? That Paul's invention?
Sanctificatio ...[text shortened]...

Co death with Christ? Something NEW of Paul ?

C'mon have you read Romans lately ?

Fine so Paul passed it on and he converted the early Christians. No conflict here that I can see.

It started with Paul. Everything else is written LATER and in the light of what Paul said.

When you stop arguing that flipping blindingly obvious nobody can reasonably dispute it point, maybe we will have more time to discuss how Paul got ("received" ) his ideas.

I'm out for the afternoon now. Playgroup beckons. 🙂

Originally posted by whodey
What you have faith in you will act on. This is why when we call on the name of the Lord it is an act of faith. This is why the man next to Christ on the cross had a death bed conversion. Although he had no time to do good works, his act of faith in calling on the name of the Lord was all that was needed.

Yeah yeah, i got that, but what about all the good works done by unbelievers? Does your god reward these?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
In Hindu theology,good works will earn merit for the person,whether he/she is a believer or not. Why,even a sinner will be redeemed,if he performs good work. It is said that just as surely as you will burn your hand if you touch a burning ember unknowingly, you will earn merit for all good work,done unknowingly.

That seems reasonable to me. I always felt that the christian outlook was a bit harsh on the virtuous heathens.

Originally posted by finnegan
Fine so Paul passed it on and he converted the early Christians. No conflict here that I can see.

It started with Paul. Everything else is written LATER and in the light of what Paul said.

When you stop arguing that flipping blindingly obvious nobody can reasonably dispute it point, maybe we will have more time to discuss how Paul got ("received" ) his ideas.

I'm out for the afternoon now. Playgroup beckons. 🙂

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Fine so Paul passed it on and he converted the early Christians. No conflict here that I can see.
==========================

If he passed it on then he didn't invent it.

" For I delivered to you, first of all, that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;

And that He was buried, and that He has been raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

And that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve;

Then He appeared to over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the majority remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;

And last of all He appeared to me also ... For I am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God." (See 1 Corinthians 15:3-9)

Paul received, passed on what he received, and had personal experience as well with the resurrected Christ.

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It started with Paul. Everything else is written LATER and in the light of what Paul said.
==================================

You're too hung up on when things were written.

And "it" did not start with Paul by a long shot. "It" was vehemently opposed by Paul before he became an advocate.

And probably your only recourse of argument to this fact is "Well, I don't believe Luke's history". Oh, Paul confirmed that he was first an enemy to the Christian belief in his letter to the Galatians.

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When you stop arguing that flipping blindingly obvious nobody can reasonably dispute it point, maybe we will have more time to discuss how Paul got ("received" ) his ideas.
==================================

I am not sure what this sentence means. But if you think I have made a challenge that no one can reasonably dispute - that is ... uh ... not true. (being polite this morning)

I can think of things penned by Paul that you COULD have reasonably argued "Show me where Jesus delivered those concepts."

For example, all Paul wrote against circumcision.

I hate to assist the one I am debating against. But the liberal bent in me often goes out to the underdog.

Bottom line here is you have to BLAME the Christian faith and the existence of the Christian church on Jesus Christ, not Paul.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
naturally, have you something to say about faith and its relationship to works?

Every person will act according to their level of understanding of what they believe. Faith without works corresponding to that professed belief is a lie, either to self or to others.
I believe in karma so therefore I always try to consider the effects of my actions upon others since I feel that doing negative is a conscious choice to receive negative at some future time. "As you give, so shall you receive" is one of my favorite quotes.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Yeah yeah, i got that, but what about all the good works done by unbelievers? Does your god reward these?

No rewards for unbelievers. Their unforgiven sins will condemn them
at the judgement. They deserve no rewards becuse you are not
saved by good works.

Originally posted by caissad4
Every person will act according to their level of understanding of what they believe. Faith without works corresponding to that professed belief is a lie, either to self or to others.
I believe in karma so therefore I always try to consider the effects of my actions upon others since I feel that doing negative is a conscious choice to receive negative at some future time. "As you give, so shall you receive" is one of my favorite quotes.

No i dont think you can state that its a lie, simply that its passive. For example you
may believe in the cause and effect of Karma, but you may also sit in an empty room,
by yourself, professing belief in the law of Karma and thinking good things about other
people, but there is nothing tangible. This is the entire point, that faith, belief
, ideology, call it what you will, must express its tendency otherwise, its useless. Its
simply not enough to believe it.

Originally posted by RJHinds
If I remember correctly, it is recorded somewhere in the
Holy Bible, that you shall know them by their works.

Actually it isn't by their works we will know them.
Kelly

Mathew 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
That seems reasonable to me. I always felt that the christian outlook was a bit harsh on the virtuous heathens.

What about the redemption of Faust,as written by Goethe?

Originally posted by jaywill
And I told you (or someone recently here) before that Paul's passed on what he had RECEIVED. I gave the reference too.

All we know about the teaching of Jesus is from the documents of the New Testament. You don't want to use those documents apparently.

Let me help you a little.

Justification by faith? That Paul's invention?
Sanctificatio ...[text shortened]...

Co death with Christ? Something NEW of Paul ?

C'mon have you read Romans lately ?

Justification by faith? That Paul's invention?

When Jesus walked the Earth, He taught that for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation" one must become righteous, i.e., one must become one with God, one must follow the will of God, one cannot continue to commit sin, etc.

If by "justification by faith", you mean something something less than this, it does not reflect what Jesus taught on the whole.

Originally posted by RJHinds
No rewards for unbelievers. Their unforgiven sins will condemn them
at the judgement. They deserve no rewards becuse you are not
saved by good works.

Didn't follow the whole discussion yet. But those eternally redeemed can also be rewarded for how they were conformed to the image of Christ after being saved.
Such rewards relate to the 1,000 years prior to the eternal age of the new heavena and new earth. That is why the intervening period was established - to reward or discipline those according to how they have cooperated with His grace.


Once saved by faith, believers are recompensed, rewarded, and punished for that matter, AFTER the return of Christ as well as during the church age.

Such reward, recompense is not for eternal life. That is GIFT and is settled by mere belief in the Son of God.

Am I right ?

Originally posted by whodey
What you have faith in you will act on. This is why when we call on the name of the Lord it is an act of faith. This is why the man next to Christ on the cross had a death bed conversion. Although he had no time to do good works, his act of faith in calling on the name of the Lord was all that was needed.

One important point:

The man next to Christ on the cross who had a "death bed conversion",
as you call it, was forgiven of his sins by Jesus the Christ and will
receive rewards for the good things he did throughout his life. There
is no need to do good works after the conversion because you are
saved by faith, not by good works. A person that is not saved by
Jesus the Christ is lost in his sins and deserves only death and will
not be rewarded no matter how much, so called, good works he did.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]Justification by faith? That Paul's invention?

When Jesus walked the Earth, He taught that for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation" one must become righteous, i.e., one must become one with God, one must follow the will of God, one cannot continue to commit sin, etc.

If by "justification by faith", you mean something something less than this, it does not reflect the totality of what Jesus taught.[/b]

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When Jesus walked the Earth, He taught that for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation" one must become righteous, i.e., one must become one with God, one must follow the will of God, one cannot continue to commit sin, etc.

If by "justification by faith", you mean something something less than this, it does not reflect the totality of what Jesus taught.
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You know good and well that we have already had exchanges over these exact points.

If you think that you made a good case in the past to me, you didn't. I don't think going around this again with ThinkOfOne is a profitable use of time.

We've been through this in the last three years, probably two or maybe even three times.

You don't answer direct questions.
You don't admit to what you REALLY regard as a record of the words of Jesus.
And you obscure exactly what is the New Testament canon.
You posture like you're arguing from the New Testament.
But when it comes down to it, Nobody really knows what portion of the 27 NT books you are standing on as a record of orthodox Christian teaching.

Thanks for the contribution. But we've been through this before.
Anyone interested in how I would deal with ThinkOfOne will have to hunt down those old exchanges.