Faith???

Originally posted by Conrau K
So to have faith i must believe God gave it to me. But i need faith to believe that God gave me faith in the first place.

You have used the exact same reprehensible logic i mentioned before.

If God gives everyone faith, why are there so many muslims? Why did the Saducees reject Jesus? (if God gave them faith surely they would have embraced him) ...[text shortened]... bserver determine which religion to follow when both are using the exact same arguments to persuade?

So to have faith i must believe God gave it to me. But i need faith to believe that God gave me faith in the first place.

Wow, you really are confused (probably my fault). Let’s try it again. This is the definition of faith.

Hebrews 11:1-2 NOW FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

You don’t “believe” God gave it to you, when God does give it you know. You also don’t need faith to receive faith. Nobody has faith until God gives it to them. Faith is the evidence that a believer needs to know that there is a God. That evidence has to be worked towards, earned if you will. At least this is one possible definition. The term is used quite loosely so I fully understand the confusion.

If God gives everyone faith, why are there so many muslims?

Maybe they have faith.

Why did the Saducees reject Jesus?

Maybe they didn't have faith.

(if God gave them faith surely they would have embraced him)

Maybe they did. Who’s to say that all the Sadducees rejected Jesus? Jesus was pretty convincing at the time. Even today there are Jews who become Christians, and the Jews reject Jesus.

Why do other religions use the exact same logic as you?

Maybe because it works.

How can an impartial observer determine which religion to follow when both are using the exact same arguments to persuade?

Good question. Use the force young Skywalker.

Edit: You could also meditate on it.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Strange how if you perused the Koran you would find an almost exact verbatim of these refernces.

Did you catch my "The Goal of Religion" thread?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]So to have faith i must believe God gave it to me. But i need faith to believe that God gave me faith in the first place.

Wow, you really are confused (probably my fault). Let’s try it again. This is the definition of faith.

Hebrews 11:1-2 NOW FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the ...[text shortened]...

Good question. Use the force young Skywalker.

Edit: You could also meditate on it.[/b]

Hebrews 11:1-2 NOW FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

So if i have no faith, does that mean that there is no evidence for things unseen? For all i know your "faith" might not exist. So how do I the impartial observer make the decision of which religion to follow?

You don’t “believe” God gave it to you, when God does give it you know.

So God didn't give me, the impartial observer faith? How dejecting. I feel
discriminated.

Faith is the evidence that a believer needs to know that there is a God. That evidence has to be worked towards, earned if you will. At least this is one possible definition.

As I said before, will that involve abandoning all intellectual challenge? Forgetting inconsistencies? Using doublethink (If you've read 1984 by George Orwell you'll know what I mean)?

Now, why is it that other religious theists use your exact same argument but substiute Jesus for whatever god they want? The point in this thread is to elicit a more solid reason to why people choose their religion over others.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Did you catch my "The Goal of Religion" thread?

Must have missed it.

EDIT. Could you give me the gist of it.

Originally posted by whodey
It says in the Bible that God requires faith. In fact, according to the Bible it is through faith that we are justified. What we place our faith to be justified is God's word. We can surely see the truth in this statement. Either God does not exist or he requires faith.

Why then does God require faith? This is a question that I have struggled with as ...[text shortened]... rovide mankind the truth regarding who he is and a message regarding how we can know him.

You miss the point. Your argument is only valid if you believe in Jesus already. To justify your faith, you use faith. Why choose one God over the other? Perhaps Jesus is one of these deceivers.

Originally posted by Conrau K
You miss the point. Your argument is only valid if you believe in Jesus already. To justify your faith, you use faith. Why choose one God over the other? Perhaps Jesus is one of these deceivers.

His disciples had a similair question regarding who are the true believers. Jesus said that you will know them by their fruits. When he said fruits he is referring to the fruits of the spirit mentioned in Galations. These include love, joy, peace, kindness, long-suffering ect. The greatest of these is love, however. In 1 Corinthians chapter 13 the Bible talks about love as being the greatest commandment. In fact, if you love the Lord with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself then you will keep God's law without even trying. It says that if you have faith to move mountains but do not have love you are nothing at all. For me this truth is why I am a follower of Christ.

The Bible says that we are created in the image of God. This makes since does it not? If you create something it is a reflection of you. It speakes volumes about your intelligence, your needs, and your desires. As human beings we crave love the same way that God does because we are a reflection of him. IN fact, if we do not have any one to love in our lives we have no life at all. God created us to have the same loving relationship with us that we crave as well. It is a God shaped void that nothing else can fill. Some may think that God created us and just left us to our own devices. However, if this is true, why do we crave loving relationships? Should we not be a reflection of our creator? If he did not leave us to our own devices, then he must have a world wide outreach. We can see this with the Christian message.

Originally posted by Conrau K

Hebrews 11:1-2 NOW FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

So if i have no faith, does that mean that there is no evidence for things unseen? For all i know your "faith" might not exist. So how do I the impartial observer make the decision of which religion to follo ...[text shortened]... n this thread is to elicit a more solid reason to why people choose their religion over others.

Hebrews 11:1-2 NOW FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

So if i have no faith, does that mean that there is no evidence for things unseen? For all i know your "faith" might not exist. So how do I the impartial observer make the decision of which religion to follow?

The term faith is used in different ways. People use it to refer to their religion, and also as a type of hope or even blind belief based off of no evidence. According to St. Paul Faith is the evidence that God gives those who search for them. This is what the following verses say.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Most people want the evidence first and then they believe. With God it’s the other way around. First it is necessary to believe and then comes the evidence. The evidence is simply when God chooses to reveal himself to you in whatever way he chooses. No two people have exactly the same experience. Once this happens though, the believer has “True Faith” I‘ll call it. The believer has the evidence.

When people try to give themselves faith, they usually loose it after a time. Anything that you can convince yourself of you can also unconvince yourself of. When God gives you faith it stays with you for the rest of your life. That doesn’t mean that you never sin again, or that you become some holy saint, it simply means that your journey has begun and there’s no going back. From that point on it’s probably impossible to revert back to an nonbeliever.

So God didn't give me, the impartial observer faith? How dejecting. I feel
discriminated.

God loves you but impartially observing will never do.

As I said before, will that involve abandoning all intellectual challenge? Forgetting inconsistencies? Using doublethink (If you've read 1984 by George Orwell you'll know what I mean)?

God cannot really be explained by the human intellect. Knowing the molecular formula of an orange doesn’t tell us what an orange is. To know and orange it is necessary to taste the orange. In the same way God has to be experienced. Not everything will make sense to you, but you also shouldn’t just have blind faith (the type that is a belief that’s based off of no evidence). Too many people get brainwashed that way. Your heart is usually your best guide.

Now, why is it that other religious theists use your exact same argument but substiute Jesus for whatever god they want? The point in this thread is to elicit a more solid reason to why people choose their religion over others.

Tuff question. Culture has a lot to do with it. Here is the link to my “The Goal of Religion” thread.

http://www.timeforchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=31370

Originally posted by Conrau K
You miss the point. Your argument is only valid if you believe in Jesus already. To justify your faith, you use faith. Why choose one God over the other? Perhaps Jesus is one of these deceivers.

Then Jesus is the place for you to start.
Research the man. The key event is His resurrection. If it didn't happen, then all of Christianity is a hoax. If it did, then Christianity if the one true religion.
But this researach you'll have to do for yourself. Anything I can talk you into, somebody else can talk you out of. When you draw the conclusion yourself, you'll not only know what you believe but you'll know WHY you believe it. Then your beliefs (or shall I use the word faith?) is secure.

I've done this research and so I know the answer you'll find. But until you put the effort into finding it yourself, you'll be batted around by all of Satan's lies, and they are many.

You're asking the right questions. Now seek the answers.

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
Then Jesus is the place for you to start.
Research the man. The key event is His resurrection. If it didn't happen, then all of Christianity is a hoax. If it did, then Christianity if the one true religion.
But this researach you'll have to do for yourself. Anything I can talk you into, somebody else can talk you out of. When you draw the conclusion y ...[text shortened]... , and they are many.

You're asking the right questions. Now seek the answers.

DF

Good post!!!!!!!

Please enlighten me why theists have such strange logic.

I agree, Theists do appear to have strange logic. I think it is because they start with different axioms than athiests. You can't get on the same page logically with someone until you share the same presuppositions. I agree, the statement of your quoted theist really doesn't answer the question at all. It's basically a restatement of his belief in God. Maybe a more effective question would be "How, if at all, did you come to a belief in God, and what is this God like?"

My apologies, I thought I was replying to the most recent post, not the first one. Ignore if you wish.

Originally posted by ruckerdc
I agree, Theists do appear to have strange logic. I think it is because they start with different axioms than athiests. You can't get on the same page logically with someone until you share the same presuppositions. I agree, the statement of your quoted theist really doesn't answer the question at all. It's basically a restatement of his belief in God. ...[text shortened]... , I thought I was replying to the most recent post, not the first one. Ignore if you wish.

I came to believe in God because I gave Him the benefit of the doubt and He showed Himself to me. After having had 1st hand experience with Him, I can't simply deny that He exists, now can I.
What is He like? Despite what people on this site like to say about Him, He is extremely loving, just as a good parent is loving. He provides for me, protects me, teaches me, etc. My life is MUCH fuller, happier, and more complete since I've truly tried to live by Him commandments.

Yes, theistic logic would seem backward to the natural man. That's because it's based more on spiritual laws than physical laws. Spiritual law says things like, if you want more, give more away. This is intuitively backwards, but it makes perfect spiritual sense. Jesus gave the analogy of a farmer sewing seed. The more seed he gives the ground, the more plants the ground will give him. If you look at that analogy in the physical sense, you say, "Well, duh!" But if you look at it in the spiritual sense you start to get the gist of what the law means.

I hope this helped some.
DF

Originally posted by Conrau K
How can an impartial observer determine which religion to follow when both are using the exact same arguments to persuade?

An impartial observer cannot. Stop observing. Stop trying to figure out who has the best description of what the ocean is like. Go to the ocean yourself, then you will know. You have no way of knowing who to believe, so find out for yourself. You may still not be able to explain what the ocean is, but you will KNOW the ocean.

Originally posted by whodey
His disciples had a similair question regarding who are the true believers. Jesus said that you will know them by their fruits. When he said fruits he is referring to the fruits of the spirit mentioned in Galations. These include love, joy, peace, kindness, long-suffering ect. The greatest of these is love, however. In 1 Corinthians chapter 13 the Bible ...[text shortened]... devices, then he must have a world wide outreach. We can see this with the Christian message.

The bible says this, the bible says that. Are you incapable of deliberating independently?

I suggest you read another religious dossier and realise how similar it is to your own. Then you would recognize that you are still evading the main question. Lots of other "bibles" say that we are made in Gods image why not follwo them instead.

The Bible says that we are created in the image of God. This makes since does it not? If you create something it is a reflection of you. It speakes volumes about your intelligence, your needs, and your desires. As human beings we crave love the same way that God does because we are a reflection of him. IN fact, if we do not have any one to love in our lives we have no life at all. God created us to have the same loving relationship with us that we crave as well. It is a God shaped void that nothing else can fill. Some may think that God created us and just left us to our own devices.

And what makes you so sure of all these assertions?

Originally posted by The Chess Express

Most people want the evidence first and then they believe. With God it’s the other way around. First it is necessary to believe and then comes the evidence. The evidence is simply when God chooses to reveal himself to you in whatever way he chooses. No two people have exactly the same experience. Once this happens though, the believer has “True F ...[text shortened]... he Goal of Religion” thread.

http://www.timeforchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=31370

Most people want the evidence first and then they believe. With God it’s the other way around. First it is necessary to believe and then comes the evidence. The evidence is simply when God chooses to reveal himself to you in whatever way he chooses. No two people have exactly the same experience. Once this happens though, the believer has “True Faith” I‘ll call it. The believer has the evidence.

Oh, i understand, foget all the inconsistencies, accept dogma, commit the suicide of my intellect and reduce myself to pontification and i will have faith
(maybe, ill try it some day). Seems to me like brainwashing.

From that point on it’s probably impossible to revert back to an nonbeliever.

really?

God cannot really be explained by the human intellect. Knowing the molecular formula of an orange doesn’t tell us what an orange is. To know and orange it is necessary to taste the orange. In the same way God has to be experienced. Not everything will make sense to you, but you also shouldn’t just have blind faith (the type that is a belief that’s based off of no evidence). Too many people get brainwashed that way. Your heart is usually your best guide.

I do not want you to explain God. I would like you to explain how God exists (the faith part). An orange is its molecular formula. You are right however in saying that knowing it is tasting it. However it seems to me that knowing God can only be achieved when one becomes blind.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
Then Jesus is the place for you to start.
Research the man. The key event is His resurrection. If it didn't happen, then all of Christianity is a hoax. If it did, then Christianity if the one true religion.
But this researach you'll have to do for yourself. Anything I can talk you into, somebody else can talk you out of. When you draw the conclusion y ...[text shortened]... , and they are many.

You're asking the right questions. Now seek the answers.

DF

Acually i have read the bible (several infact). I have researched his life. But the thing is i find it reminiscent of almost all other religions. So which do i choose? I already have a secure faith. That there is no God (or atleast a different God. I'm not a theist, agnostic or atheist). This belief is infact a faith and as you say I know WHY i beleive it.