Faith???

Originally posted by JadeMantis
An impartial observer cannot. Stop observing. Stop trying to figure out who has the best description of what the ocean is like. Go to the ocean yourself, then you will know. You have no way of knowing who to believe, so find out for yourself. You may still not be able to explain what the ocean is, but you will KNOW the ocean.

So you're saying I can't know which religion is right, so just choose one anyway. Perhaps i dont believe there is an ocean (Maybe i should visit the lake?)

Originally posted by Conrau K
Oh, i understand, foget all the inconsistencies, accept dogma, commit the suicide of my intellect and reduce myself to pontification and i will have faith (maybe, ill try it some day). Seems to me like brainwashing. I do not want you to explain God. I would like you to explain how God exists (the faith part). An orange is its molecular formula. You are righ ...[text shortened]... tasting it. However it seems to me that knowing God can only be achieved when one becomes blind.

[/b]I could respond to this but I think I've wasted enough time...



Edit: Try reading my last post again.

Originally posted by Conrau K
The bible says this, the bible says that. Are you incapable of deliberating independently?

I suggest you read another religious dossier and realise how similar it is to your own. Then you would recognize that you are still evading the main question. Lots of other "bibles" say that we are made in Gods image why not follwo them instead.

[b]The Bible ...[text shortened]... d just left us to our own devices.

And what makes you so sure of all these assertions?[/b]

Nothing I say to you will prove to you what you should believe. I was merely attempting to relay the reasons I believe what I believe. For myself it is not merely an exercise in reason, although as you can see from my posts it is not completly void of reason. I do not rely on reason alone for my beliefs. It is after all a spiritual connection and not an intellectual exercise in a vacume. I think we can both agree that their are elements to our existence that neither science nor reason can delve.

What drew me to Christ was the "love" message of the Bible. Love is why our lives have meaning. The fact that love gives our lives meaning is not logical, it is simply the way it is. Christ even went so far as to say that we should love our enemies and bless those who despitfully use us. To my knowlege their had been no such radical teaching as this up until that time. What other religion teaches this?

As far as other religions go, I would have to say that Christianity is distinguishable from the rest of the pack by leaps and bounds. It seems to me that all other religions have what I refer to as "scales". On one side of the scales are all of your good deeds and on the other side of the scale are all your bad deeds. At the end of your life you simply hope that the good deeds outweigh your bad deeds so as to help ensure a pleasant after life. Christianity teaches something radically different. Christianity teaches that once you have sinned you are then a sinner. No good deed that you can do can undo the sin you comitted. Only the act of a sinless Christ sacrificing himself for your sins can set you free. This is the other aspect of Christianity that distinguishes itself from all other religions. It is the only religion in which God himself reaches out in love to his creation in the act of self sacrifice.

The last element that distinguishes Christianity from all others in my opinion is that the Bible teaches that God wants a relationship with us. It is not merely an exercise in mindless rituals and vain self denial to achieve some element of self righteousness. Again, God is a God of love and craves a relationship with us no matter how bad or insignificant we think ourselves to be. What other religion can rival it?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Acually i have read the bible (several infact). I have researched his life. But the thing is i find it reminiscent of almost all other religions. So which do i choose? I already have a secure faith. That there is no God (or atleast a different God. I'm not a theist, agnostic or atheist). This belief is infact a faith and as you say I know WHY i beleive it.

Why are they so similar? Why aren't they identical? If there is only one true god, should they all be the same?
What if someone/something was intentionally trying to mislead us? How would he do it? One good way would be to use the same tool governments use to mislead people, a campaign of mis-information. If I put enough bad info out there, the good info gets lost in the sheer volume of info floating around.

As I said, Christ's resurrection is the key. Did He really walk the Earth, die, and then come back to life? If yes, then you can take the Bible seriously and the Bible teaches that Satan is intentionally misleading us. Remember, the best lie is 75% truth! Perhaps that's why so many religions sound so similar.

DF

Originally posted by Conrau K
So you're saying I can't know which religion is right, so just choose one anyway. Perhaps i dont believe there is an ocean (Maybe i should visit the lake?)

No, what I am saying is that you are asking the wrong questions.
Religion is a socio-political construct. Choose whichever one fits your social needs. If you want to know about god, forget religion.

If all you are able to do is to visit the lake, then sure, start there.

When you finally figure out which religion is the right one, go back to square one as you obviously took a wrong turn somewhere.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
I could respond to this but I think I've wasted enough time...



Edit: Try reading my last post again.[/b]

I was going to say the same thing to you. Like I said mutilated intellect.

Originally posted by JadeMantis
No, what I am saying is that you are asking the wrong questions.
Religion is a socio-political construct. Choose whichever one fits your social needs. If you want to know about god, forget religion.

If all you are able to do is to visit the lake, then sure, start there.

When you finally figure out which religion is the right one, go back to square one as you obviously took a wrong turn somewhere.

You seem to separate God from religion. I like it!

Originally posted by DragonFriend
Why are they so similar? Why aren't they identical? If there is only one true god, should they all be the same?
What if someone/something was intentionally trying to mislead us? How would he do it? One good way would be to use the same tool governments use to mislead people, a campaign of mis-information. If I put enough bad info out there, the good in ...[text shortened]... mber, the best lie is 75% truth! Perhaps that's why so many religions sound so similar.

DF

Yes, but what if Jesus was one of those "misleaders."
What if I prove Mohammed did all the things the he was supposed to have done. Should i believe in both of them? Should I believe in all of them?

Originally posted by whodey
Nothing I say to you will prove to you what you should believe. I was merely attempting to relay the reasons I believe what I believe. For myself it is not merely an exercise in reason, although as you can see from my posts it is not completly void of reason. I do not rely on reason alone for my beliefs. It is after all a spiritual connection and not an i ...[text shortened]... matter how bad or insignificant we think ourselves to be. What other religion can rival it?

Actually the love message is what first drew me to Christianity. I was hoping someone would mention it. However, love to me provides an insight into God but not into Christianity. Love convinced me of a God (in an obscure way) but which one?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Actually the love message is what first drew me to Christianity. I was hoping someone would mention it. However, love to me provides an insight into God but not into Christianity. Love convinced me of a God (in an obscure way) but which one?

So you are saying that the love message is what drew you to christianity the first time? So does this mean you were a christian once? Also, how can you say that love does not give you an insight into christianity? After all, Christ is the author of the love message in the Bible. Are the followers of such a love message not to also emulate that as well? It sounds to me that you heard the right message but did not receive the message from true followers of the message. Perhaps they did not walk the walk but simply talked the talk so to speak. I am glad that love has convinced you of a God. It convinced me as well. If you have found a better message then please share.

Originally posted by whodey
So you are saying that the love message is what drew you to christianity the first time? So does this mean you were a christian once? Also, how can you say that love does not give you an insight into christianity? After all, Christ is the author of the love message in the Bible. Are the followers of such a love message not to also emulate that as well? I ...[text shortened]... d you of a God. It convinced me as well. If you have found a better message then please share.

What first attracted me to Christianity was the fact that people were doing loving things (hmmm I am trying to exclude innuendo). However, later on I observed this same phenomenon in other religion and even in non-religions. Jesus might be the author of love in Christianity but that does not explain the exorbitant amount of love in other
religions (who attribute their love to another authority altogether). This is what I mean about love not giving an insight into christianity. Of, course it is easy to explicate love as the result of chemicals reactions and evolution (which is of course plausible but extremely prosaic and uninspiring).

I have spoken about faith as being inherently blind because one must shut the eye of the intellect to have it. However, i would maintain this illusion (faith, perhaps?) in the case of love.

In a sense, I am a Christian without dogma, a Jew without birth, a Muslim without fanaticism (oops should I retract that one?).

I once said "God is love."Now this has a holistic characteristic. Often what is implied in this statement is that god is indeed love but also somehting more (the trinity, the creator, living bread?). However, I tend to reverse it and say "Love is God." This is why I am inclined to refer to myself as not atheist or theist. I don not believe in a creator but I do belive in a God (kind of). Hell, maybe i should just be an agnostic. Seems easier.

Originally posted by Conrau K
You seem to separate God from religion. I like it!

JadeMantis is correct, God is seperate from religion.
A preacher I respect once said that the church is simply a signpost to God. Going and sitting in a pew won't get you any closer to God than going and sitting on a sign that says "Denver, 400 miles". It takes action in both cases.
I think of a church as a school where one can learn about God. You go there, rub shoulders with those that know more about the topic than you do, and some of it will rub off (assuming you don't just put in your one hour a week and actually become an active member of the church). But the priest/pastor/minister/... isn't deserving of worship, as so many try to entice people to do. Only God should be worshipped.
Simply put, the church's purpose is to help people establish a one-on-one relationship with God. A Bible believing, Bible preaching church will do this. All others aren't worth the time it takes to drive there.

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
JadeMantis is correct, God is seperate from religion.
A preacher I respect once said that the church is simply a signpost to God. Going and sitting in a pew won't get you any closer to God than going and sitting on a sign that says "Denver, 400 miles". It takes action in both cases.
I think of a church as a school where one can learn about God. You g ...[text shortened]... hing church will do this. All others aren't worth the time it takes to drive there.

DF

Bible believing? Strange, I wouldn't call that worship.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Bible believing? Strange, I wouldn't call that worship.

Bible believeing is a term used for churches that teach the message of the Bible without warping it to fit today's society. It's worship because they are teaching the truth as God gave it, not man's adjusted version of it.
They don't worship the Bible, no. That's just a book.

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
It's worship because they are teaching the truth as God gave it, not man's adjusted version of it.

DF

Assuming it is true. Which you can't garauntee so of requires faith. What I meant before was, why does worship involve reading the bible?