1. Joined
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    28 Jan '06 21:42
    A person on this forum argued that the gospels must be true because if they weren't the gospel writers must be liars (and it would an amazing psychological occurence if their mendacity was affirmed). I ask, are the writers of other religious documents also liars? (well accordingly they must be). Are the writers of other gopels also liars? (apparently so).
    So we are wittnessing copious "psychological occurences" in religion. Amazing!

    This leads me to another question, why believe in one gospel and not the other? Many on this site might retort that it is "gods grace" but then why do others have conflicting beliefs also caused by "gods grace." I remember St. Paul the apostle reminding Christians tha faith is belief in the unseen. So theists are basically asking us (non-belivers) to believe in them by abandoning all intellectual chellenge.

    I recently read a book endorsed by the late John Paul the second. One of its arguments for believing in God was because Jesus says "if you dont, you go to hell" (I think this conviction is conveyed in Jesus' parable about the wheat (unbelievers) being thrown into the fire (hell).
    However, to acquiesce to the book's argument means we have to already "believe" because we have to believe Jesus was right. Thus, to believe in Jesus, we mut already believe in Jesus. Sounds a bit strange.

    Please enlighten me why theists have such strange logic.
  2. Colorado
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    28 Jan '06 21:521 edit
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    A person on this forum argued that the gospels must be true because if they weren't the gospel writers must be liars (and it would an amazing psychological occurence if their mendacity was affirmed). I ask, are the writers of other religious documents also liars? (well accordingly they must be). Are the writers of other gopels also liars? (apparently so sus. Sounds a bit strange.

    Please enlighten me why theists have such strange logic.
    A person on this forum argued that the gospels must be true because if they weren't the gospel writers must be liars (and it would an amazing psychological occurence if their mendacity was affirmed). I ask, are the writers of other religious documents also liars?

    Sounds like either a weak argument or perhaps you misunderstood them.

    Are the writers of other gopels also liars? (apparently so).

    Not necessarily.

    This leads me to another question, why believe in one gospel and not the other?

    Why indeed?

    Many on this site might retort that it is "gods grace" but then why do others have conflicting beliefs also caused by "gods grace." I remember St. Paul the apostle reminding Christians tha faith is belief in the unseen. So theists are basically asking us (non-belivers) to believe in them by abandoning all intellectual chellenge.

    Not at all. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. God gives people faith. As this forum shows when people try to give themselves faith they falter.

    I recently read a book endorsed by the late John Paul the second. One of its arguments for believing in God was because Jesus says "if you dont, you go to hell" (I think this conviction is conveyed in Jesus' parable about the wheat (unbelievers) being thrown into the fire (hell). However, to acquiesce to the book's argument means we have to already "believe" because we have to believe Jesus was right. Thus, to believe in Jesus, we mut already believe in Jesus. Sounds a bit strange.

    Please enlighten me why theists have such strange logic.


    Personally I don’t think that the whole “Believe the way I do or go to hell” argument is a good one.
  3. Hmmm . . .
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    28 Jan '06 22:10
    I’ve posted pretty much this same message before (and am starting to get bored with it myself). Nevertheless, maybe you’ll find it helpful, or at least thought-provoking, so here goes—

    The Greek wordpistis, generally translated as faith or belief, means trust or confidence (or even trustworthiness)—hence, faith (Latin fide). The verb form pisteo is not possessive: it doesn’t really translate as “to have faith,” but “to faith.”

    The English word “believe” meant originally to “hold dear”—and hence to trust, with perhaps a connotation of hope as well. Thus it was, originally at least, a perfectly appropriate translation for pisteo. One of the definitions I find in my dictionary still reflects this at least somewhat: “to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or reliability of something although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so.” (Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary; my bold)

    However, it can also, in contemporary English, mean such things as to be persuaded of something, to suppose or assume, or to hold an opinion. These seem much more to be matters of what one thinks. I think people can fall into a trap here, and develop a kind of “think right or be damned” notion (to put it crassly)—and be certain of it! I know it’s not always so crass as that, but I also know good folk who try to “believe really hard,” and are dreadfully afraid that any doubts will undermine their “faith.”

    Faith, in what I think is its original sense, is more like the quarterback who throws the “hail Mary” pass in the final seconds of the game, with no real “proof” or certainty of the outcome. But the more confidence he can muster in throwing it (as well as his skill, experience and attention to the “evidence” of what’s going on on the field), the better his chances of connecting.

    I am saying nothing here of anyone’s particular religious “beliefs” one way or the other.
  4. The sky
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    29 Jan '06 01:53
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    God gives people faith. As this forum shows when people try to give themselves faith they falter.
    Hmmm. So why doesn't God give it to everyone?
  5. Colorado
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    29 Jan '06 02:03
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    Hmmm. So why doesn't God give it to everyone?
    God does. Believe me he does.

    Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    You just have to ask for it.
  6. Donationkirksey957
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    29 Jan '06 02:13
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    God does. Believe me he does.

    Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    You just have to ask for it.
    Some of the most profoundly spiritual writings I have been reading of late are of "seeking, asking, and coming up empty." Do you find a place for God's absence in the stories of faith?
  7. Colorado
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    29 Jan '06 02:281 edit
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Some of the most profoundly spiritual writings I have been reading of late are of "seeking, asking, and coming up empty." Do you find a place for God's absence in the stories of faith?
    Tuff question. I’ll probably need specific examples. What did you find profoundly spiritual about them?

    I’ve prayed for things that I didn’t get before, but they were mostly things that I didn’t really need, and my prayers were admittedly half ass. I think it’s a matter of sincerity and devotion. There is nothing half ass about “seek me with all your heart”.

    Have you seen the account given by KingDavid403 on page 11 of my “Is The Bible Accurate” Thread? God came to me in a similar way once. He didn’t actually speak to me like with David, but I knew he was there. I’m quite convinced that God does vanquish the doubts of those who truly accept him.
  8. Donationkirksey957
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    29 Jan '06 02:31
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    Tuff question. I’ll probably need specific examples. I’ve prayed for things that I didn’t get before, but they were mostly things that I didn’t really need, and my prayers were admittedly half ass. I think it’s a matter of sincerity and devotion. There is nothing half ass about “seek me with all your heart”.

    Have you seen the account given by K ...[text shortened]... the doubts of those who truly accept him.

    What did you find profoundly spiritual about them?
    "Night" by Elie Wiesel came eto mind. The "profoundly spiritual" part for me was the honesty before God. It wasn't all pretty.
  9. Colorado
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    29 Jan '06 02:43
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    A person on this forum argued that the gospels must be true because if they weren't the gospel writers must be liars (and it would an amazing psychological occurence if their mendacity was affirmed). I ask, are the writers of other religious documents also liars? (well accordingly they must be). Are the writers of other gopels also liars? (apparently so).
    ...[text shortened]... Sounds a bit strange.

    Please enlighten me why theists have such strange logic.
    Just curious, when we debated in my Catholicism thread you seemed very religious. What caused you to loose your faith? It wasn’t me was it?
  10. Joined
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    29 Jan '06 02:58
    Originally posted by vistesd

    Faith, in what I think is its original sense, is more like the quarterback who throws the “hail Mary” pass in the final seconds of the game, with no real “proof” or certainty of the outcome. But the more confidence he can muster in throwing it (as well as his skill, experience and attention to the “evidence” of what’s going on on the field), the better hi ...[text shortened]... g.

    I am saying nothing here of anyone’s particular religious “beliefs” one way or the other.
    To paraphrase from your analogy, I dont think there is any reason for the quaterback to throw the "hail Mary" at all.

    Why believe in this (i.e. christianity) and not the other (i.e. Islam) when both are equally uncompelling?
  11. Joined
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    29 Jan '06 03:04
    Originally posted by The Chess Express


    Not at all. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. God gives people faith. As this forum shows when people try to give themselves faith they falter.

    So to have faith i must believe God gave it to me. But i need faith to believe that God gave me faith in the first place.

    You have used the exact same reprehensible logic i mentioned before.

    If God gives everyone faith, why are there so many muslims? Why did the Saducees reject Jesus? (if God gave them faith surely they would have embraced him) Why do other religions use the exact same logic as you? How can an impartial observer determine which religion to follow when both are using the exact same arguments to persuade?
  12. Joined
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    29 Jan '06 03:05
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    God does. Believe me he does.

    Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    You just have to ask for it.
    Strange how if you perused the Koran you would find an almost exact verbatim of these refernces.
  13. Unknown Territories
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    29 Jan '06 03:12
    Originally posted by vistesd
    I’ve posted pretty much this same message before (and am starting to get bored with it myself). Nevertheless, maybe you’ll find it helpful, or at least thought-provoking, so here goes—

    The Greek wordpistis, generally translated as faith or belief, means trust or confidence (or even trustworthiness)—hence, faith (Latin fide). The verb form ...[text shortened]... g.

    I am saying nothing here of anyone’s particular religious “beliefs” one way or the other.
    I believe there are other forms of the word. There is to believe, and what is believed, meaning one as a verb and one as a noun.
  14. Joined
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    29 Jan '06 04:55
    It says in the Bible that God requires faith. In fact, according to the Bible it is through faith that we are justified. What we place our faith to be justified is God's word. We can surely see the truth in this statement. Either God does not exist or he requires faith.

    Why then does God require faith? This is a question that I have struggled with as a believer. From studying the scriptures, however, it becomes a little clearer. In the Old Testament when Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt by parting the Red Sea, the children of Israel had been personal witnesses to some of the greatest miracles in the Bible. Yet it says in the Bible that when the children of Israel escaped into the wilderness that they lost faith in God. Moses led them into the wilderness and the first question they asked Moses was why he led them out into the wilderness to die. Then as Moses went to the top of Mount Siani to receive the ten commandments the people built a golden calf to worship. Also take into consideration the fall of man itself. Adam and Eve spoke with God and walked with God yet lost faith in the words of God and decided to believe a lie instead when they partook of the fruit. So as we can see from the illustrations of the Bible, faith has little to do with evidence that there is a God. It has more to do with the response of believing there is a God. Why then should God waste his time proving to mankind that he exists? From previous examples of men knowing without a doubt that God does exist, this seems fruitless.

    Also consider that God is the only one with the "big picture". We can never fully understand the big picture because we are not God. Therefore, there will always be times either in this life or the next when we will simply have to take God's word about something we don't understand. We simply have to believe that God is benevolent and has our best interests at heart or stike out on our own at our own peril. If God really has our best interests at heart then their is no getting around the fact that not trusting in his word will cause us to fall flat on our face and ultimatly cause us to come to our own ruin.

    As far as other religions go, according to the Bible there is only one true God and one true Messiah to reconcile all of mankind back to him. If you consider battle of good and evil in the Bible, you can better understand why their are so many other religions. God has power over everything. Therefore, all that oppose him are out gunned. They exist merely by his own grace. The only avenue of resistance for God's enemies, therefore, is through deception. We see this in the story of man's first fall as the serpent deceived Eve with the apple. It is then understandable that the deception continues today. Lies abound regarding who the true God is and what his true word is. For myself, it is logical to assume that God would provide those who choose to walk in faith a chance to do so. After all, this is what he is looking for. He would provide mankind the truth regarding who he is and a message regarding how we can know him.
  15. Hmmm . . .
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    29 Jan '06 05:54
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    To paraphrase from your analogy, I dont think there is any reason for the quaterback to throw the "hail Mary" at all.

    Why believe in this (i.e. christianity) and not the other (i.e. Islam) when both are equally uncompelling?
    To believe anything in the face of evidence (or the lack of it) that you do not find compelling is intellectually dishonest and a violation of conscience. With that said, compelling evidence does not imply certainty. We often have to make decisions, based on the best evidence we have, but in the face of uncertainty. That was the basis for my “hail Mary” analogy, although all such decisions are not of a great magnitude. (I’m ignoring our “free will” discussions here.) I also want to say that I was not talking about any version of “Pascal’s wager.”

    My real reason for the post was to try to outline the meanings of the original Greek word as used in the New Testament. The Hebrew word emunah has similar meanings, with a sense of “steady-handedness.” Since it is a related Semitic language, I suspect the Arabic is similar as well. What I do not think they mean is “think right and be saved,” and the word “believe,” in some of its contemporary usages, seems to mean what I think, what my conclusions or opinions are. And that circles me back around to my first sentence above...
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