1. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jun '17 12:491 edit
    I have been accused of giving false hope to some who profess to be atheists. Let us assume that those who make this accusation are correct. Then there are two kinds of false hope being promoted here:

    1. The kind which people say I am guilty of
    2. The kind which people like sonship and like minded believers {the OSAS types] are guilty of.

    1. My Kind of false hope - I believe that Jesus will welcome into his Kingdom all those who live righteously. Why? Jesus said so, first and foremost. Also in Romans 2, Paul dealt with the issue of people with no law. Some of these people follow their conscience and some are able to live righteously.

    2. OSAS - this promotes the idea that Christians who profess their faith, and who continue with sin can still enter the Kingdom of God. This doctrine ignores the statement by all the Apostles which say that Christians who are guilty of this lifestyle are in a worse off position that if they did not know of Jesus in the first place, and ignores all the warnings that they will be destroyed.

    So is God a God of righteousness or a God of sin and evil. Paul answers this by proclaiming that sinful Christians:
    - make Christ a minister of sin
    - are enemies of the cross of Christ
    - mock God with their evil works
    - are like dogs returning to their vomit
    - are like swine wallowing in the mud
    - crucify Jesus over and over
    - are like the traitor Judas Iscariot lacking in loyalty and faithfulness.
    - will be destroyed

    Two questions :
    - How can any of this be good news for Christians who continue with sin?
    - How can what I say to encourage atheists to live good and righteously be constured as something bad?

    Sadly some Christian doctrines are truly messed up.
  2. Standard memberdj2becker
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    21 Jun '17 13:16
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I have been accused of giving false hope to some who profess to be atheists. Let us assume that those who make this accusation are correct. Then there are two kinds of false hope being promoted here:

    1. The kind which people say I am guilty of
    2. The kind which people like sonship and like minded believers {the OSAS types] are guilty of.

    1. My Kind of ...[text shortened]... ighteously be constured as something bad?

    Sadly some Christian doctrines are truly messed up.
    When you say that people can be saved by works and without faith you are directly contradicting scripture. If your faith is in your own goodness and your own righteousness then you have false hope.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jun '17 13:21
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    When you say that people can be saved by works and without faith you are directly contradicting scripture. If your faith is in your own goodness and your own righteousness then you have false hope.
    You will find nowhere that Jesus Christ, the saviour of mankind, the great preacher and teacher, the Son of God, the author and finisher of life, the judge of the world ... said that.

    What you have stated is a statement by Paul which is twisted by Christians to prove that they and they alone can get eternal life.

    It is a selfish arrogant piece of nonsense.
  4. Standard memberdj2becker
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    21 Jun '17 13:331 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You will find nowhere that Jesus Christ, the saviour of mankind, the great preacher and teacher, the Son of God, the author and finisher of life, the judge of the world ... said that.

    What you have stated is a statement by Paul which is twisted by Christians to prove that they and they alone can get eternal life.

    It is a selfish arrogant piece of nonsense.
    Actually you cannot find one place where Jesus says we can live righteously without faith. That is just something you made up.

    You will find scriptures that say we are saved by faith and not by works so you are the one who is ignoring scripture.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jun '17 14:00
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Actually you cannot find one place where Jesus says we can live righteously without faith. That is just something you made up.

    You will find scriptures that say we are saved by faith and not by works so you are the one who is ignoring scripture.
    Jesus preaches about what you need to do. .. not what you DONT need to do or DONT need to have. Its called positive preaching .. what one needs to do.

    Some atheists will enter the Kingdom of God , because
    they have read what Christ says,
    they have understood Christ
    they will obey Christ
    they believe Christ. because they agree doing good works the right thing to do
    they will enter the kingdom

    Some Christians :
    have read what Christ says
    have decided that they cannot follow these commandments
    have decided to live with their mouth worship only.
    therefore their heart is hardened against Christ.

    Jesus will judge
  6. Standard membersonship
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    21 Jun '17 14:141 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    he Son of God, the author and finisher of life


    I think you mean "the Author and Finisher of our FAITH " (Hebrews 12:2)
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    21 Jun '17 14:192 edits
    Hope is what we all need in order to function. Without it, we could not function. Without it, we would have no reason to get out of bed.

    So the question becomes, what do we place our ultimate hope in? Is it ourselves? Is it in money? Is it in government? Is it in others? Or is it in God?

    I choose the later. Man falls well short of the righteousness of God. even Raj
  8. Standard memberdj2becker
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    21 Jun '17 14:22
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Jesus preaches about what you need to do. .. not what you DONT need to do or DONT need to have. Its called positive preaching .. what one needs to do.

    Some atheists will enter the Kingdom of God , because
    they have read what Christ says,
    they have understood Christ
    they will obey Christ
    they believe Christ. because they agree doing good works ...[text shortened]... their mouth worship only.
    therefore their heart is hardened against Christ.

    Jesus will judge
    So when Jesus told the people he healed that they were healed by their faith, you took from that that faith is non essential?
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    21 Jun '17 14:29
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    So when Jesus told the people he healed that they were healed by their faith, you took from that that faith is non essential?
    Jesus said that sin enslaves and that he has the keys to set us free.

    According to others, we don't need Jesus to set us free from sin, they can manage on their own.
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jun '17 14:321 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    he Son of God, the author and finisher of life


    I think you mean [b]"the Author and Finisher of our FAITH " (Hebrews 12:2)
    [/b]
    Ok thanks. I got it mixed up with this one :

    Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jun '17 14:36
    Originally posted by whodey
    Hope is what we all need in order to function. Without it, we could not function. Without it, we would have no reason to get out of bed.

    So the question becomes, what do we place our ultimate hope in? Is it ourselves? Is it in money? Is it in government? Is it in others? Or is it in God?

    I choose the later. Man falls well short of the righteousness of God. even Raj
    All fall short. But many, though short will still enter Gods Kingdom.
    Who enters? Not talkers, not hearers, but DOERS.

    I notice you rather enjoy boasting of your sins. That is only a virture ONCE.
    Boast that you are a sinner, yes but then change
    Then continue on to REPENTANCE
    Then further continue on to good works.

    This is what Paul warned. You belong the milk people who do not progress to the meat of the word of God to righteousness and good works

    Continued boasting that you are a sinner, without doing what Jesus said .. ie repent and and change from that state, is only going to lead to your eternal damnation.
  12. Standard memberdj2becker
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    21 Jun '17 14:37
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Ok thanks. I got it mixed up with this one :

    Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    And how exactly does someone obey God when they lack faith in his word?
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jun '17 14:38
    Originally posted by whodey
    Jesus said that sin enslaves and that he has the keys to set us free.

    According to others, we don't need Jesus to set us free from sin, they can manage on their own.
    And according to some they dont need to change they just need to talk about Jesus.
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jun '17 14:39
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    And how exactly does someone obey God when they lack faith in his word?
    If someone reads the teachings of Christ and decides to follow the good works that Jesus spoke of they do in fact have faith.
  15. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    21 Jun '17 14:40
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    And how exactly does someone obey God when they lack faith in his word?
    (Psst, when they adhere to His law written on their hearts).
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