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Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==========================================
C'mon Jaywill. If you paid better attention you'd realize that it was Epi who asserted that that passage was about "discerning true Christians from false Christians." Jesus said something VERY similar in Luke about people in general, so there was no reason to quibble.
Luke 6
42“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the spe ny of the 'difficult issues have been addressed" all you want, but then there's reality.[/b]
C'mon Jaywill. If you paid better attention you'd realize that it was Epi who asserted that that passage was about "discerning true Christians from false Christians." Jesus said something VERY similar in Luke about people in general, so there was no reason to quibble.
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"C'mon Jaywill" where ?
There's no need to act as if I am being unreasonable.
I may not have followed the whole thread from the beginning. I don't think it is necessary. The teaching of Matthew 7:14 tells us "Beware of false prophets". The warning is about false prophets.
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Luke 6
42“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye. 43“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44“For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.
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Here the good treasure is the heart that is good. So in this context the issue is the condition of a man's heart. The heart is the mind, emotion, will, and conscience. What kind of man you are depends upon the condition of your heart. That is all that is being taught there. So even a true Christian disciple also needs his heart to be renewed, transformed, developed with the virtues of Jesus. Then out of his dealt with heart he may draw good treasure rather than bad.
So? Doesn't the entire New Testament tell us the same ?
It is a well known fact that the evangelists at times seem to have differences in the sequencing of sayings of Jesus. It is curious that the arrangements of the sayings of Jesus have some different postitioning at times in Luke then as in Matthew.
So I realize the similarity. But if you really want Christ's teaching on the true verses the false disciples, the place to go for explicit teaching is in Matthew 13:24-30 which is the parable of the wheat and the tares. The explanation need not be guessed at because Jesus provides a full explanation of His own parable in 36-43.
"Make the parable of the tares of the field clear to us. And He answered and said, He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; And the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
And the enemy who sowed them is the devil; and the harvest is the consummation of the age; and the reapers are angels.
Therefore just as the tares are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the consummation of the age. The Son of Man will send His angels; and they will collect out of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
In this teaching, the Master tells His servants NOT to try to uproot the tares from the wheat in the world. The reason given is that they may make a mistake.
"And the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where then did the tares come from? And he said to them, An enemy has done this.
And the slaves said to him, Do you want us then to go and collect them? But he said, No, lest while collecting the tares, you uproot the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Collect first the tares and bind them into bundles to burn them up, but the wheat gather into my barn." (27-30)
Here Jesus did not say "By their fruits you will know them. Go eliminate the ones with bad fruit." On the contrary. He warns His disciples not to try to go through the world and collect out of the WORLD, the false sons of the kingdom. The reason given is that they may make a mistake. But the angels at the end of the age will not make a mistake.
This is a teaching for the disciples on dealing with true sons of the kingdom verses imitation sons of the kingdom. And the meaning is clear. In the WORLD ("the field is the world" (v.38) ) the disciples should not attempt to eliminate FALSE disciples of Christ from true disciples of Christ because they do not have sufficient discernment to tell the difference at all times.
This teaching was disobeyed by Roman Catholicism. We all know that the Roman Catholic Church attempted to rid the world of heretics and false Christians. And in the process they killed many genuine disciples of Christ. This is history.
Now Jesus said that the field is the WORLD (v. 38). He did not say that the field is the CHURCH. The disciples should, in principle, try not to allow false disciples to join themselves to the church. But they should not attempt to rid the WORLD of false disciples of Christ because they may make a mistake. He did not say that they will know them by their fruits and if their fruits are not right, then eliminate them from the world.
Christians should realize that the enemy of God has sown counterfeit believers along with true believers in Christ. The reason was to hinder the progress of real believers. Satan has sown false Christians in the world among true Christians.
The true Christians, while doing their best to keep them out of the church, should not expect to keep them out of the WORLD. They cannot always tell the true believers from the false believers. The angels of God at the end of the age will not make any mistakes in this regard.
Now in the church the disciples should exercise discernment that imposters imitating true believers would not attempt to join the church. But mistakes will sometimes be made there. This is a matter of fact not principle. Though, in principle true believers should preserve the church to include only true believers, sometimes a false believer will be among them and they will not know it.
But in the parable Christ is not talking about the exclusion of phony Christians from the church but from the field of the world. And He does not say that the phony Christians will always be known by their fruits. He says that as far as the disciples are concerned some phony Christians will not be known at all, except to the angels of God.
Had Jesus intended that the disciples recognize false disciples by their fruits and eliminate them from the world then He would have taught that way. Then something like the Spanish Inquisition may have had divine blessing upon it. Most Christians are clear that divine blessing was not on the Inquisition and it was done in violation to the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 13.
Originally posted by epiphinehasSo you receive input from an omniscient god. Why does he/she/it need to give you input since he/she/it already knows every atom in the universe and their ultimate fate, already knows who goes to your heaven and hell. There is no need for this god to give you input.
[b]In other words, obsess yourself with prayer, expect help to come from above, ignore your own mind, just believe in the tooth fairy and you will get your quarter.
As I said, it's not a matter of mere belief—it's a partnership with the living Christ.
How about just using your own mind and throwing off the mental shackles of your organized r ...[text shortened]...
Of course, you have every right to that opinion, however misinformed it may be.[/b]
Basically your god is condemning a very large percentage of the population of humans to hell and taking a minority to what you think is heaven.
Doesn't that bother you?
If a kid has an ant farm, do you think it is going to favor one ant over another? In your own bible it says this god does not think like we do, it is WAY above mere humans. So why would it favor a minority of humans and condemn the rest to your hell?
Originally posted by buckkyThere seems to be no real rest, even in retirement, on this earth.
I've thought about that. What if someway I could go on forever, and never die. I'm already thinking it's a good deal that I'm at the end of the dance. I'm tired of trying to compete in a hurry up world that I seem to be farther removed from every day. I think there comes a time when your ready to lay your burden down and see what happens. I'm hopeing for a wonderful adventure with fresh eyes.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneActually, there isn't any merit to the suggestion that Christians fear death. Christians don't fear death. The fear of death is for those who have no hope. It's a no-brainer ToO.
Actually, there's really quite a bit of merit to it.
I have no fear of death. I'm actually looking forward to the experience. For me death is the doorway to eternity. Death was conquered by Jesus. Jesus beat death and rose from the dead so that; "he might be the firstborn among many brethren"; "the firstborn of every creature:" and, "he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence".
Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, Colossians 1:18
You're dreaming if you think Christians are afraid of death.
Originally posted by karoly aczelKaroly,I want to give the Hindu view about this. We are told that there are 3 bodies for each of us. The first one is called ' sthula sharir ' or gross body. It is what we know as ourselves,an assembly of bones,muscle,blood,fat,nerves,cartilage etc. This one is to die when 'we' die. There is a ' sukshma sharir ' or subtle body. This one comprises of our deeds( karmas),impressions from this and the past births,memories of this and past births etc. This will not die but will cling to our third body called ' karan sharir ' or causal body or our soul. The 2nd and 3rd bodies do not die but travel together to lodge into another 1st type of body in some womb. That is our rebirth. Our aim should be not to undergo a rebirth. For this to happen we should free our soul from the clinging subtle body. This can happen by following spiritual practice.
Death completes the circle. But until then your soul will strive to get back to it's origonal position.
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Originally posted by epiphinehasI disagree, to me this is profoundly logically inconsistent. Further, I'd say that anybody who honestly thinks that any person, regardless of character, should qualify for eternal damnation simply for not following a particular religion needs to get some perspective. And if there is a place where those people (the ones who are happy with the idea that heaven is accessible only to christians) go after death, I'm damn sure I don't wanna go there.
Your former complaint, that hypocritical Christians get in and well-behaved atheists do not, is, I would agree, logically inconsistent. But the principle that only Christians (authentic Christians) may receive the reward of heaven, is not.
Edit: I don't claim to have any idea about what happens when we die, but I don't fear it in the slightest. Looking forward to it a little, if I'm honest.
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Originally posted by avalanchethecatBy logically consistent, I mean that the saving of only a few is logically consistent within Christian theology. Let me explain, as briefly as possible.
I disagree, to me this is profoundly logically inconsistent. Further, I'd say that anybody who honestly thinks that any person, regardless of character, should qualify for eternal damnation simply for not following a particular religion needs to get some perspective. And if there is a place where those people (the ones who are happy with the idea tha die, but I don't fear it in the slightest. Looking forward to it a little, if I'm honest.
God's condemnation of man to death (physical death) and eternal separation from His presence (spiritual death) is based on God's holy law, being of the highest possible standard. Everything in God is in agreement as to the judgment pronounced upon mankind according to it; viz., in man's condemnation, justice is fulfilled. The idea being that if we truly understood the infinite glory and goodness of the one true God, and also truly understood the depraved depths of our rebellion, that the nature of our condemnation could only appear to us as unassailably just and right. Thus, for anyone to consider God's judgment unjust or excessive merely belies a lack of proper perspective.
Further, if God never sent Christ into the world as a propitiation for our sins, we would still be incapable of any complaint against Him; there would be no possibility of charging God with injustice, and our race would rightly pass out of all knowledge and memory—eternally condemned. But God established a Way out, through the suffering and death of Jesus Christ. It is through Christ that grace is extended to humanity—a wholly undeserved kindness. In order for the righteousness of God's law to be fulfilled and a way made for condemned sinners to be made right with God, Jesus Christ—i.e., the innocent, sinless Lamb of God—had to suffer the sufferings meant for sinners (physical pain, humiliation, separation from God, and death). In Christ, the law of God was satisfied.
But in order for God's grace to be realized in the life of the everyday sinner, that sinner is required, by God, to be 'born again'. We are born in the flesh once, and thereby into judgment; we must be 'born again' by the Spirit, and thereby into new life. And the only way to appropriate this 'new life'—the only way to get 'born again'—is through repentance (i.e., turning from one's sins and toward God's righteousness) and faith in the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice, culminating in a public declaration of faith and water baptism. God draws people to Christ through the internal instigation of the Holy Spirit. Thus, faith can only be considered a miraculous work of God, though we inwardly participate according to our response to the Spirit's movement in us. Ever after, the life one leads in Christ is a process of being led by the Holy Spirit into good works and the sharing Christ's Gospel—thereby glorifying God.
A long story short, there is simply no room to charge God with injustice for condemning some people and saving others. In both cases God's justice is fulfilled.
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Originally posted by sonhouseBasically your god is condemning a very large percentage of the population of humans to hell and taking a minority to what you think is heaven. Doesn't that bother you?
So you receive input from an omniscient god. Why does he/she/it need to give you input since he/she/it already knows every atom in the universe and their ultimate fate, already knows who goes to your heaven and hell. There is no need for this god to give you input.
Basically your god is condemning a very large percentage of the population of humans to h bove mere humans. So why would it favor a minority of humans and condemn the rest to your hell?
Of course it does. That's why I share the Gospel, in the hope that you and others will believe and get born-again.
In your own bible it says this god does not think like we do, it is WAY above mere humans. So why would it favor a minority of humans and condemn the rest to your hell?
Anyone, regardless of who they are, can find salvation in Christ. You, the flesh and blood person whose Red Hot Pawn username happens to be 'sonhouse', could—right now—choose to approach Christ in faith. There's nothing holding you back except an unwillingness to trust God's word. And whatever your reasons for not being willing to trust God's word, the fact remains that Christ's invitation is open to you. The same can be said about anyone who hears the Gospel preached. Is the fact that not everyone will receive God's grace really a good enough reason not to receive it yourself?
Originally posted by buckkyHaving discussed this with friends from various religious backgrounds (albeit not fundamentalists) it seems that MOST people are NOT afraid of death. The common factor is a fear of SUFFERING.
Do you think it's the fear of death that drives people in their spiritual pursuits ? I know that for me at around the age of fourteen I started to really focus on the fact that I would die someday, and that sounded like no fun. The idea of being snuffed out as if you had never been scared me. So I turned to religion, and spiritual writings to try and find a w ...[text shortened]... ms you can find yourself. Maybe everything is you. No seperation only Unity with the universe.
Shockingly some relgions use this fear to outlaw euthanasia while promoting eternal damnation !! .............. 🙄
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Originally posted by epiphinehasI started going through your post with a fine-toothed comb, but I quickly realised that you hadn't quite grasped my objection to your faith. I'm sure your world-view is perfectly consistent from your perspective, because you are already a christian.
By logically consistent, I mean that the saving of only a few is logically consistent within Christian theology. Let me explain, as briefly as possible.
God's condemnation of man to death (physical death) and eternal separation from His presence (spiritual death) is based on God's holy law, being of the highest possible standard. Everything in God i ng some people and saving others. In both cases God's justice is fulfilled.
Consider if you will, however, a devout and wholly good person who, by fortune (good or otherwise) of birth and parentage has spent his life adhering to a different faith. There is little if anything in your scripture to distinguish your faith as being the 'correct' faith - why would this hypothetical person commit the abominable act of abandoning his own faith in order to follow yours? Of course he would not - particularly since there's a good chance that his faith cautions, as yours does, that his is the correct path to god or enlightenment or whatever. And yet, according to you, unless he takes this deeply unattractive leap into the unknown, he remains damned for all eternity.
I really don't see how you can seriously attempt to argue that this is a good and just treatment. As I see it, for a good and just god to judge someone wanting in this manner is logically inconsistent, as it is neither good nor just. No amount of detailed explanation of the basis of your god's 'holy law' or the 'depraved depths of our rebellion' can counter this point. If the only way to salvation is via Jesus, then your god is quite clearly not a just god.
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Originally posted by avalanchethecatTo be fair, Paul's letter to the Romans chapter two mentions those who haven't received the law of God, yet obey the Law of God—their obedience being evidence that the law of God is written on their hearts. There are many Christian apologists who argue from the principle that God judges according to the "light" someone has received. The argument being: God is just and so judges justly; were an individual to die before hearing about Christ, God would judge that individual according to his or her deeds, whether those deeds were in conformity with God's law.
I started going through your post with a fine-toothed comb, but I quickly realised that you hadn't quite grasped my objection to your faith. I'm sure your world-view is perfectly consistent from your perspective, because you are already a christian.
Consider if you will, however, a devout and wholly good person who, by fortune (good or otherwise) he only way to salvation is via Jesus, then your god is quite clearly not a just god.
The necessity of Christ's sacrifice, though, would remain, since whatever mercy God chose to show towards an individual would nevertheless proceed from the efficacy of that sacrifice. In a sense, then, all people are in need of Christ's sacrifice, and all people benefit from that sacrifice, whether they are aware of Christ or not—some are direct recipients of His grace through an active faith in Jesus Christ and others are indirect recipients, i.e., those who receive God's mercy on the Day of Judgment, according to their deeds.
Even so, not everyone will go to heaven. Those who hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and reject it will not go to heaven. Those who call themselves Christian, or Jew, who do not live according to God's law, will not go to heaven. Those who have never heard of Christ, who do not obey God's law, who live sinful lives, will not go to heaven.
One might wonder, then, why we Christians share the gospel at all, if God will save non-believers who obey His law with a sincere heart. The answer is simple, but I don't think simplistic: to glorify God. Christ is the Truth and anyone who loves the Truth is going to want to share it (Him). The holiness of Christ and the finality of His cross is an awesome thing to contemplate. It is said that Christ was born for the rising and falling again of many; that he would be a stumbling-block for the prideful—he was made into the least, and God, by raising up and glorifying Him, put the pride of men to shame. Christ turns everything the world values on its head, which is according to God's plan.
Originally posted by epiphinehasAh, I think I understand - thank you for clarifying. I shall go and study Paul's letters some.
To be fair, Paul's letter to the Romans chapter two mentions those who haven't received the law of God, yet obey the Law of God—their obedience being evidence that the law of God is written on their hearts. There are many Christian apologists who argue from the principle that God judges according to the "light" someone has received. The argument being: ...[text shortened]... ist turns everything the world values on its head, which is according to God's plan.