Originally posted by galveston75 I don't care who disagrees with the truth of the Bible. The scriptures are clear to those who lets God direct them and does not to those who are stuck in paganistic thinking.
The Bible says Jehovah has no need for the man made wisdom of the world and that would include their religious ideals.
When one changes the Bible and the truths in it, Jehovah has no need for their opinions.
Here is the last verse in that paragraph that may explain what is meant:
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:18 KJV)
Can't the Greek word translated "firstborn" mean the head over and the one having preeminence over all things, both alive and dead, as explained in this verse?
Also how could it mean He was created, if it says He created ALL things?
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Colossians 1:16-17 KJV)
The following is the complete paragraph according to the NKJV:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Originally posted by RJHinds Here is the last verse in that paragraph that may explain what is meant:
[b]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:18 KJV)
Can't the Greek word translated "firstborn" mean the head over and the one having preeminence over all t ...[text shortened]... from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.[/b]
(Colossians 1:15-18 NKJV)[/b]
I explained these exact verses yesterday. I see you did not read that.
Originally posted by galveston75 I explained these exact verses yesterday. I see you did not read that.
But your explanation added to the text and did not answer my questions of today. This is talking about Jesus and all the pronouns must refer to Jesus. You can't Just apply the pronouns to whomever you will and make it up as you go along.
Lets try again. In view of this last verse in the paragraph given below:
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:18 KJV)
Can't the Greek word translated "firstborn" mean the head or and the one having preeminence over all things, both alive and dead, as explained in this verse?
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:15-18 NKJV)
And the second question:
Also how could it mean He was created, if it says He created ALL things?
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Originally posted by galveston75 I don't care who disagrees with the truth of the Bible. The scriptures are clear to those who lets God direct them and does not to those who are stuck in paganistic thinking.
The Bible says Jehovah has no need for the man made wisdom of the world and that would include their religious ideals.
When one changes the Bible and the truths in it, Jehovah has no need for their opinions.
Funny, I agree and could say these exact same things about JWs.
You and robbie often have the truth in your mouths, but not in your heart, and so you say these things not to whom should hear them, but to others to whom they do not apply.
Also,
When one changes the Bible and the truths in it, Jehovah has no need for their opinions.
it's interesting that you use these exact words. How fitting to your man-made dogma and the Bible you created to fit your dogma. Yes, I daresay Jehovah turns his ear from you.
Who says Jehovah is omnipresent and omniscient? Not us.... You do know he had a reason he created angles don't you? They are messengers, reporters and ones who he gives assignments too and to search things out for him.
Who says God is omnipresent ?
[b]Psalm 139:7-10 for example.
"Where shall I go, away from Your Spirit, an ...[text shortened]... a matter of Him being limited in power. It is His pleasure to [b]delegate duties and tasks.[/b]
Spot ON.
Man-made dogma will never hold a candle to the Word of God.
Originally posted by RJHinds But your explanation added to the text and did not answer my questions of today. This is talking about Jesus and all the pronouns must refer to Jesus. You can't Just apply the pronouns to whomever you will and make it up as you go along.
Lets try again. In view of this last verse in the paragraph given below:
[b]And he is the head of the body, the c ...[text shortened]... m:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Colossians 1:16-17 KJV)[/b]
It only seems I added, which I didn't, because you want to believe what you are wanting to believe. And without God allowing you to see what it is saying, you never will.
When one deny's who Jehovah God is and even deny his name, how would one ever expect Jehovah to let his holy spirit come upon you to see? One can't.
Originally posted by RJHinds If you don't care that you disagree with the truth of the Holy Bible, then why bother us? Since the Watchtower has attempted to change the truth of the Holy Bible, our great God and Savior has no need for their opinions.
[b]The apostle Paul tells Timothy “For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will ...[text shortened]... ill turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.”
Originally posted by Suzianne Funny, I agree and could say these exact same things about JWs.
You and robbie often have the truth in your mouths, but not in your heart, and so you say these things not to whom should hear them, but to others to whom they do not apply.
Also,
When one changes the Bible and the truths in it, Jehovah has no need for their opinions.
it's i ...[text shortened]... gma and the Bible you created to fit your dogma. Yes, I daresay Jehovah turns his ear from you.
Oh so now you are doing God's work and reading my heart? Wow, that is awesome.
You guys really need to think about what you are going to say before you post it.
Originally posted by RJHinds Here is the last verse in that paragraph that may explain what is meant:
[b]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:18 KJV)
Can't the Greek word translated "firstborn" mean the head over and the one having preeminence over all t ...[text shortened]... from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.[/b]
(Colossians 1:15-18 NKJV)[/b]
Exactly right.
I am gratified that my words are not falling on deaf ears after all.
Originally posted by galveston75 Oh so now you are doing God's work and reading my heart? Wow, that is awesome.
You guys really need to think about what you are going to say before you post it.
Perhaps she has a mind ray hidden far in the hills?
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05 Feb '14 15:421 edit
To all my orthodox Christian brothers and sisters:
Don't fall into a trap of denying the incarnation.
Christ is both the Creator and the creature. Otherwise we would not believe that God was incarnated.
This is a temptation that I see fellow Christians have when fighting for the truth that Christ is God. In saying Christ is God as rightly we should, we should not deny that "the Word became flesh". (Forget about JW's the Word was a god)
If the Word Who was God became flesh then we have to confess that God is God the Creator as well as a man the creature. God created man (Genesis 1:26,27) without any possibility of doubt. So for the Christ to be incarnated has to mean He is Creator as well as the creature man which the Creator created.
My word of caution is that we Christians should not let the Arians and Watchtower teachers push Christians into a position of denying that Jesus Christ is God / Man. We cannot fight heresy with another heresy.
If the Word was God (John 1:1) and "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14) then the Creator is also creature - God and man have become ONE.
Originally posted by galveston75 Oh so now you are doing God's work and reading my heart? Wow, that is awesome.
You guys really need to think about what you are going to say before you post it.
When the truth is twisted and perverted to the degree shown by only two people in this forum, one can only conclude that their hearts must be, at best, unclear on the truth. At best.
Originally posted by sonship To all my orthodox Christian brothers and sisters:
Don't fall into a trap of denying the incarnation.
Christ is both the Creator and the creature. Otherwise we would not believe that God was incarnated.
This is a temptation that I see fellow Christians have when fighting for the truth that Christ is God. In saying Christ is God as rightly we shou ...[text shortened]... became flesh" (John 1:14) then the Creator is also creature - God and man have become ONE.[/b]
I agree fully. In fact, Col. 1:15 clearly points to the truth and glory of John 1.
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05 Feb '14 15:56
Originally posted by Suzianne I agree fully. In fact, Col. 1:15 clearly points to the truth and glory of John 1.
I agree. It may not be easy for our limited minds to comprehend. But this is what the Bible reveals.
I would like to open a thread on "The Trinity - an Advanced Talk" to move from the usual and elementary passages to deeper revelations of this nature of God in places where people may not usually consider.
I am afraid though that it will fall into the usual apologetics as Galveston, Rajk999, Robbie, and one or two others launch their typical objections.
Firstborn of all creation
04 Feb '14 21:521 edit
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