Firstborn of all creation

he is OF the creation, that is a PART OF CREATION.

Tell me something that I do not know.
He is also the Word who became flesh.

Flesh is an item of the creation of God.
So also is man an item of the creation of God.

So of course God's being incarnated involves Him joining Himself to creation.

Tell me, you Watchtower students.

Genesis 18:2 says God would go down to see about Sodom -

"And Jehovah said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, how great it is; and their sin, how very heavy it is!

I shall go down and see whether they have done altogether according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

Jehovah is omnipresent and omniscient. Why then was there a need for Jehovah God to "go down" to see about Sodom ?

Genesis 11:6 concerning the tower of Babel likewise records God saying "Come, let Us go down and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Jehovah is omnipresent, is everywhere, is omniscient. Why did He have to say "let Us go down" ?

Originally posted by galveston75
I think when they read certian scriptures that conflicts with certian beliefs of theirs like the trinity for example and it's what they "want" to believe for many reasons, like just refusing to agree period with our beliefs because we might just be right on that subject, or because of family pressure or whatever their reasons are, do they really see thes ...[text shortened]... te how he has the power to fool so many. But then the bible says he would on a very large scale.

And I showed you where that angel of the Lord identified Himself as God and told Moses to call Him "I AM", which you claim is Jehovah God. Why then do you not claim Jehovah God is an angel like you claim of Jesus?

Originally posted by RJHinds
And I showed you where that angel of the Lord identified Himself as God and told Moses to call Him "I AM", which you claim is Jehovah God. Why then do you not claim Jehovah God is an angel like you claim of Jesus?

The words "I am" in the Hebrew Scripture can not be accurately translated into English. The Hebrew word for "I" is singular plural, when used as God speaking to His people.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
The words "I am" in the Hebrew Scripture can not be accurately translated into English. The Hebrew word for "I" is singular plural, when used as God speaking to His people.

Regardless of accuracy, that is the translation most English version give. And JWs say the angel of the Lord, who gave that name (whatever it is) to be called by Moses is Jehovah. And they have no problem saying Jehovah is God and even saying Jehovah is the God that Jesus calls His Father.

My question to them was this: Why do JWs insist Jesus was or is an angel on very flimsy evidence, yet do not say anything about Jehovah being an angel based on this statement of scripture, in which the angel of the Lord states He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Originally posted by sonship
Tell me, you Watchtower students.

Genesis 18:2 says God would go down to see about Sodom -

[b]"And Jehovah said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, how great it is; and their sin, how very heavy it is!

I shall go down and see whether they have done altogether according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

Jehovah ...[text shortened]... h is omnipresent, is everywhere, is omniscient. Why did He have to say "let Us go down" ?[/b]

It's actually verse 20, not 2

Who says Jehovah is omnipresent and omniscient? Not us.... You do know he had a reason he created angles don't you? They are messengers, reporters and ones who he gives assignments too and to search things out for him.

Originally posted by RJHinds
And I showed you where that angel of the Lord identified Himself as God and told Moses to call Him "I AM", which you claim is Jehovah God. Why then do you not claim Jehovah God is an angel like you claim of Jesus?

Lets see......because he's not.

You should really dig deeper into the Bible and ask Jehovah to help you understand these "simple" truths. Must be a reason why you don't understand so much.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Regardless of accuracy, that is the translation most English version give. And JWs say the angel of the Lord, who gave that name (whatever it is) to be called by Moses is Jehovah. And they have no problem saying Jehovah is God and even saying Jehovah is the God that Jesus calls His Father.

My question to them was this: Why do JWs insist Jesus was or is ...[text shortened]... of scripture, in which the angel of the Lord states He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Wow, that's some messed up ideas. Just saying.....

Originally posted by galveston75
I said that stupid statement because your saying is so irrational.

It's just amazing how you can read a scripture which is crystal clear but yet to make it fit with such things as the trinity, you HAVE to twist and make up stuff to convience yourselves that what a scripture says, it really isn't.
First born in any language on earth means FIRSTBORN a ...[text shortened]... at it says in the simplest way because it blows your ideas out of the water...... Unbelieveable.

Nice, take MY assertion and try to tar ME with it. Genius.

It is YOU who cannot accept the truth of the Bible and must fall in line with your masters, the WT corporation and jump through all the hoops necessary to make your made-up dogma somehow relevant.

You err in the most simplistic way in deriving this meaning from the text, despite verses before and after which take another meaning. I would point out how many concordances and Bible commentators do not agree with you, but that would just feed into your persecution complex.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Nice, take MY assertion and try to tar ME with it. Genius.

It is YOU who cannot accept the truth of the Bible and must fall in line with your masters, the WT corporation and jump through all the hoops necessary to make your made-up dogma somehow relevant.

You err in the most simplistic way in deriving this meaning from the text, despite verses before ...[text shortened]... ible commentators do not agree with you, but that would just feed into your persecution complex.

There is nothing like a woman to put a man in his place. Well said.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Nice, take MY assertion and try to tar ME with it. Genius.

It is YOU who cannot accept the truth of the Bible and must fall in line with your masters, the WT corporation and jump through all the hoops necessary to make your made-up dogma somehow relevant.

You err in the most simplistic way in deriving this meaning from the text, despite verses before ...[text shortened]... ible commentators do not agree with you, but that would just feed into your persecution complex.

I don't care who disagrees with the truth of the Bible. The scriptures are clear to those who lets God direct them and does not to those who are stuck in paganistic thinking.
The Bible says Jehovah has no need for the man made wisdom of the world and that would include their religious ideals.
When one changes the Bible and the truths in it, Jehovah has no need for their opinions.

Originally posted by galveston75
[b]It's actually verse 20, not 2

Who says Jehovah is omnipresent and omniscient? Not us.... You do know he had a reason he created angles don't you? They are messengers, reporters and ones who he gives assignments too and to search things out for him.

Who says God is omnipresent ?

Psalm 139:7-10 for example.

"Where shall I go, away from Your Spirit, and where shall I flee from Your presence ? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, there You are. If I take the wings of the dawn and settle at the limits of the sea, There also Your hand will lead me, and Your right hand will take hold of me." (Psalm 139:7-10)

Where is God omniscient ?

For all intents and purposes God is omniscient. So says Isaiah the prophet for example.

"I [Jehovah] have declared the former things from the beginning." (48:3)

God speaking to Israel challenging them to be as extensive in knowing all things as God Himself:

" ... says the King of Jacob. Let them bring forth and declare to us what will take place; Let them show what the former things were, That we may consider them. And may know the end of them; Or let us hear the things that are coming. Declare to us the things that are coming afterward, that we may know that you are gods;" (vs21b-23)

God declares that He knows the future before it occurs.

"I am Jehovah, that is My name, and My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to idols. And new things I am telling you; Before they spring forth I will let you hear them." (42:8,9)

Nothing is hidden from His eyes:

"Sheol is naked before Him, and Abaddon has no covering." (Job 26:6)

"The eyes of Jehovah are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good." (Prov. 15:3)

" And there is no creature that is not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and laid bear to the eyes of Him to whom we are to give our account." (Hebrews 4:13)

God's creation and usage of the angels is not a matter of Him being limited in power. It is His pleasure to delegate duties and tasks.

Originally posted by galveston75
I don't care who disagrees with the truth of the Bible. The scriptures are clear to those who lets God direct them and does not to those who are stuck in paganistic thinking.
The Bible says Jehovah has no need for the man made wisdom of the world and that would include their religious ideals.
When one changes the Bible and the truths in it, Jehovah has no need for their opinions.

If you don't care that you disagree with the truth of the Holy Bible, then why bother us? Since the Watchtower has attempted to change the truth of the Holy Bible, our great God and Savior has no need for their opinions.

The apostle Paul tells Timothy “For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.”

(2 Timothy 4:3-4)

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It has been asserted that Christ is not a created entity, could those who profess this perspective please explain the following scripture, Collossians 1:15, made with reference to Jesus Christ,

(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation

Its has been asserted that this is made with reference to Jesus p ...[text shortened]... erse indicates that Christ is of the creation, how are we to understand that he was not created?

John 14:28 You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Look at the picture portraying the situation of eternity in Revelation 21, 22.

"And the city has no need of the sun or the moon that they should shine in it, for the glory of God illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. (21:23)

And there will no longer be a curse. And the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His slaves will serve Him.

And they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

And night will be no more; and they have no need of the light of a lamp and of the light of the sun, for the Lord God will shine upon them; and they will reign forever and ever." (22:2-5)

In the center of the city is one throne, THE throne, "the throne of God and of the Lamb" . That is not plural "thrones" but "THE throne" belonging to "God and of the Lamb"

God is in the Lamb for eternity.
God is embodied in the Redeemer, the Lamb of God Jesus Christ.
On the throne is God because on the throne is the Redeemer, Jesus the Lamb.

God is also the LIGHT of the city. It says " ... for the Lord God will shine upon them ..." . The light which is God Himself is shining OUT from within the lamp ... that is the l a m p . And the lamp is the Lamb. It says " ... for the glory of God illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb."

The ONE throne is of God and the Redeeming Lamb.
And the ONE Light is God shining and illumining from within the Lamp.
The Lamb is the lamp.

Here you have a definite portrait of the Trinity.
God is the light in the lamp Who is the Lamb-lamp.
God is on the throne because the Lamb is on the throne.
Pouring out of the throne of God and of the Lamb is the river of the water of life signifying the Holy Spirit-

"And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the [singular] throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street." (22:1)

You have the Father as God.
You have the Son within Whom is the Father.
You have the Father in the Son upon the [singular] throne of God and of the Redeeming Lamb.
You have the Father as the light shining out from the Son as the lamp.
And you have the Holy Spirit pouring forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

You have for eternity the Trinity, the Triune God dispensing His life and nature from the seat of universal administration and authority reigning by the dispensing of His life into the holy city New Jerusalem.

This picture is of the meaning of the universe and the meaning of God. God is triune for the dispensing of Himself into man. God for eternity is reigning and dispensing Himself into a corporate city for a corporate expression of Himself in His saved people.