1. Standard memberColetti
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    06 Jun '05 01:22
    I was questioning the definition of the term fornicator in another thread http://www.timeforchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=23720&page=8 but the question was off topic and I decided to start a new thread here to see what input I get.

    I am not convinced that a couple in a committed relationship having sex before they are married, is necessarily acting in sin. Especially if they are committed to getting married - and the intention was not the modern view of trying on the shoe before you buy it. The Bible does not seem clear to me on this issue - that premarital intercourse is a terrible sin in all cases. Nemesio replied to the effect that fornication is defined as sex outside of marriage and that is a clear sin. I said that he should justify his definition of fornication via scripture, because I don't think it is all that clear. I think his reply was something to the effect that the definition is the standard one that has been accepted for thousands of years. Later, to my surprise, he posted in impertinent question asking me if I considered myself a fornicator. I ignored the question since it has nothing to do with defining the term.

    What I'm interested in, is seeing if someone knowledgeable about scripture can give me a solid biblical exegesis on the term fornication. I'm disappointed the Nemo resorted to simply saying that the meaning has been understood for thousands of years. As a Christian and a rational person, I find this answer rather poor. If people had a standard definition, then someone must have had a reason for it - and that is what I am after.

    I searched through the scriptures and only find the term in the New Testimony.
    (Mat 15:19 NASB) "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

    (Mar 7:21 NASB) "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,

    (Joh 8:41 NASB) "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."

    (Act 15:20 NASB) but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

    (Act 15:29 NASB) that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

    (Act 21:25 NASB) "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."

    (1Co 6:9 NASB) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

    (Heb 13:4 NASB) Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefined; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.


    The last verse seems to be the most relevant. It is the only verse that relates fornication to marriage. It does not clearly define the term, but it does give us some evidence of it's meaning.

    The word Greek word in Heb 13 is pornos.

    por'-nos
    From pe´???µ? perne¯mi (to sell; akin to the base of G4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), that is, (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine): - fornicator, whoremonger.


    A further search revealed that pornos has been translated often as "sexually immoral" and "whoremonger" as well as "fornicator."

    It's a very interesting term and I think it's meaning (fornicator) is not simply a person who has sex before marriage. The term seems to be stronger. An unmarried person who frequently has sex with various partners or with prostitutes would certainly be a fornicator.

    Like more sins I have seen condemned - I think it those that are repetitive, habitual, and un-repentant that are most clearly condemned.

    I haven't looked through the Old Testament yet but it does not have the word fornicate in it - which makes sense since the term comes from the Greek. I suspect that a clear understanding of the term would have to account for the bibles view of marriage and adultery, and the role and meaning of virginity to a marriage.

    Any biblical insights would be appreciated - so if anyone has an additional verse or term that would help, let me know. I believe in letting scripture interpret scripture - so that is what I will find most convincing. I'd appreciate any scriptureal evidence.

    I know many here do not accept scripture as God's word - but for the sake of argument - let's say it is. Froggy may consider his remarks about Pauline religion to be noted in absentia for the record.
  2. Standard memberColetti
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    07 Jun '05 21:38
    No comments? Maybe ya missed it.
  3. Subscriberno1marauder
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    07 Jun '05 22:29
    Originally posted by Coletti
    No comments? Maybe ya missed it.
    RBHILL says that once you are saved all your sins are forgiven, so what does it matter if sex before marriage is a sin or not? You could chuck three year olds in a furnace under his view and be perfectly acceptable for salvation so long as a hour later you got on line, said you were saved and told other people that they are going to Hell because they don't believe as you do.

    And since you believe in predestination, what is the concept of sin, anyway? If you're a member of the Elect aren't you in the same boat as RBHILL'S "saved" troops? Can't you stick an axe in the family next door and you're still going to Heaven, as that was determined before the universe was formed? So why this hypertechnical concern about whether something is a "sin" or not?
  4. Donationkirksey957
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    07 Jun '05 23:36
    Originally posted by Coletti
    No comments? Maybe ya missed it.
    When you say "I know there are many here who do not accept scripture as God's word" I think it would be more accurate to say that many people on the site struggle with inconsistencies and incongruence about various parts of the Bible and thus find it difficult to accept the whole of the Bible. Many of these people , however, have no problems accepting the "truth" contained in various passages.
  5. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    08 Jun '05 05:39
    Originally posted by Coletti
    I was questioning the definition of the term fornicator in another thread http://www.timeforchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=23720&page=8 but the question was off topic and I decided to start a new thread here to see what input I get.

    I am not convinced that a couple in a committed relationship having sex before they are married, is necessarily a ...[text shortened]... Froggy may consider his remarks about Pauline religion to be noted in absentia for the record.
    Why? Is there supposed to be a difference between Paul writings and Christ's words there?
    Btw we know what sodomy is but what the heck is Gomorrahry?

    Try to answer without laughing when you use the Greek translator
  6. Standard memberXanthosNZ
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    08 Jun '05 05:45
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    When you say "I know there are many here who do not accept scripture as God's word" I think it would be more accurate to say that many people on the site struggle with inconsistencies and incongruence about various parts of the Bible and thus find it difficult to accept the whole of the Bible. Many of these people , however, have no problems accepting the "truth" contained in various passages.
    I accept what I believe as truth not because it's in the Bible but because it's the right way to live my life.
    The Bible as a book means nothing to me.
  7. London
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    08 Jun '05 07:43
    Originally posted by XanthosNZ
    I accept what I believe as truth not because it's in the Bible but because it's the right way to live my life.
    Meaning ... what exactly?
  8. Standard memberdj2becker
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    08 Jun '05 07:55
    Originally posted by Coletti
    I was questioning the definition of the term fornicator in another thread http://www.timeforchess.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=23720&page=8 but the question was off topic and I decided to start a new thread here to see what input I get.

    I am not convinced that a couple in a committed relationship having sex before they are married, is necessarily a ...[text shortened]... Froggy may consider his remarks about Pauline religion to be noted in absentia for the record.
    The Greek word that is alternately translated as "fornication" or "sexual immorality" (depending on the Bible version) is porneia. Some claim this word only refers to prostitution and not pre-marital sex in general.

    The word is defined by Louw and Nida's Greek-English Lexicon as, "to engage in sexual immorality of any kind, often with the implication of prostitution - 'engage in illicit sex, to commit fornication, sexual immorality, fornication, prostitution.'"(1)

    Walter Baur's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines it as, "prostitution, unchastity, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse."(2) Fritz Rienecker's Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament defines it as "Fornication, illicit sex."(3)

    http://www.dtl.org/ethics/article/pre-marital/always-sin.htm
  9. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    08 Jun '05 12:56
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    When you say "I know there are many here who do not accept scripture as God's word" I think it would be more accurate to say that many people on the site struggle with inconsistencies and incongruence about various parts of the Bible and thus find it difficult to accept the whole of the Bible. Many of these people , however, have no problems accepting the "truth" contained in various passages.
    He had is right on my part. I do not accept the Bible as the Word of God. And I don't know how many people struggle with inconsistencies and incongruence there; once you admit that they exist you can no longer view the Bible as God's Word without redefining just about everything, and if you don't admit that they are there then you certainly can't struggle with them (at least not publicly).

    That said, I have no problems accepting the "truth" found in various passages. Of course, my truth may be different from your truth, but oh well.

    ... --- ...
  10. Standard memberdj2becker
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    08 Jun '05 13:04
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    He had is right on my part. I do not accept the Bible as the Word of God. And I don't know how many people struggle with inconsistencies and incongruence there; once you admit that they exist you can no longer view the Bible as God's Word without redefining just about everything, and if you don't admit that they are there then you certainly can't ...[text shortened]... ous passages. Of course, my truth may be different from your truth, but oh well.

    ... --- ...
    That said, I have no problems accepting the "truth" found in various passages. Of course, my truth may be different from your truth, but oh well.

    So you are saying that "truth" is relative?
  11. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    08 Jun '05 13:49
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]That said, I have no problems accepting the "truth" found in various passages. Of course, my truth may be different from your truth, but oh well.

    So you are saying that "truth" is relative?
    [/b]
    only when interpreted by humans.
  12. Standard memberdj2becker
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    08 Jun '05 16:42
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    only when interpreted by humans.
    Oh, you mean each person's interpretation of truth is relative. I almost thought you said that truth itself is relative.
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