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@sonship saidWhen I used the word "saved", I meant the salvation of Christ's sacrifice. He gave his life for us, who haven't earned it, as the pure Lamb of God, as a perfect expression of love. This love is not an expression of his wrath, and wrath is the punishment given to those beyond redemption. The threat of this wrath coming to us is not an inducement to seek his love, but turns us away out of fear. That is a twisted concept; this is the kind of "love" expressed by an alcoholic father toward children he may or may not actually love and may actually resent. The overwhelming feeling generated from this is fear, which again, is not an inducement to love. Fear is the mind-killer and the heart-breaker. Fear, not love, follows wrath. There is no expression of sacrifice or redemption from wrath, just as there is no expression of fear from love. Love can NOT come from wrath, or even the fear of wrath, and yet, this is the threat the mainstream church insists will come to us if we do not love the one who threatens us. This is not my God, and this is not what brought me to God. Love saves... wrath only punishes.
@SuzianneThe pure love of God can save all of us. I'm not sure that the wrath of God has ever saved anyone.
When God swallowed up Pharoah and his pursuing army in the Red Sea in His wrath, was that an expression also of His love for His saved Israelites brought out in the Exodus ?
@suzianne saidThis bit interests me [and well said the rest of it, by the way].
The threat of this wrath coming to us is not an inducement to seek his love, but turns us away out of fear.
An atheist's non-belief is not caused by fear. One would have to believe the fearful thing exists before being able to fear it.
If a believer is "turned away out of fear" they must presumably believe the fearful thing exists, so what does being "turned away" mean? Loss of belief, I can understand... "but out of fear" I don't understand.
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When I used the word "saved", I meant the salvation of Christ's sacrifice. He gave his life for us, who haven't earned it, as the pure Lamb of God, as a perfect expression of love.
I see. I was including the larger matter that those saved from the judging angel killing the Firstborn were saved by the Paschal Lamb's blood. After being saved from that judgment upon Egypt they still needed to be SAVED from Pharoah's persuing army.
Pharoah is a type of Satan. And the salvation from the Satan corrupted world seeking to drag them back into slavery was a saving carried out by God defeating Pharoah and his army in the depths of the Red Sea.
Your point is understood well. But I think the significance of this aspect of salvation cannot be ignored. For God to show His love to His people it is necessitated that His and their hell bent enemies be destroyed.
This love is not an expression of his wrath, and wrath is the punishment given to those beyond redemption.
Your point is understood and I agree in a sense. But I take opportunity to point out that His sacrifice also BORE on our behalf Divine Wrath upon sin and Satan and the fallen world.
Actually, it is. Christ died on the cross not merely under the pain of human torture. He endured the wrath of God in His body against sin.
This is why in John 3:14,15 Jesus taught that His death was likened to the lifting up of the bronze serpent in the wilderness. Bronze or brass is an element in the Bible signifying judgment. The bronze serpent mean that when Jesus died on the cross in the eyes of God this was God carrying out His judgment UPON SATAN.
He was MADE sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21).
"Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
This is not wrath against the saved. But it is judgment and wrath against something that is so close to the saved - the enemy to whom the sinner became attached.
In His death God condemned in His wrath sin in the flesh.
" ... God sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, ... (Rom. 8:3)
God's love for us was seen in His wrath of judging sin in the flesh in and upon Jesus. And Jesus died in the form of Satan being judged under the wrath of God.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes into HIm may have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)
Can you see God's love is expressed in His anger there ?
The threat of this wrath coming to us is not an inducement to seek his love, but turns us away out of fear.
There is always a tendency that our way we came to Jesus is the same for everyone. Those who were snatched from the fire with fear (Jude 23) do not have a valid experience in turning to God for salvation.
King James Bible
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. (2 Cor. 5:11)
A gospel causing sinners to have fear of judgment is not totally invalid. Sometimes in the Bible fear of God's wrath WAS a motivation to turn to His love and mercy.
Am I right ?
That is a twisted concept; this is the kind of "love" expressed by an alcoholic father toward children he may or may not actually love and may actually resent. The overwhelming feeling generated from this is fear, which again, is not an inducement to love.
Well, the motivation of fear of impending anger of God's judgment is not ABSENT altogether from His inspired word. That such may be over utilized I would agree.
I would not agree that the motivation of fear of God (which is the beginning of wisdom) is not sometimes in the word of God.
"How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" (See Hebrews 2:3)
Fear is the mind-killer and the heart-breaker. Fear, not love, follows wrath. There is no expression of sacrifice or redemption from wrath, just as there is no expression of fear from love. Love can NOT come from wrath, or even the fear of wrath, and yet, this is the threat the mainstream church insists will come to us if we do not love the one who threatens us. This is not my God, and this is not what brought me to God. Love saves... wrath only punishes.
Certainly "the love of Christ constrains us" (2 Cor. 5:14) .
But also "the fear of the Lord is clean enduring forever" (Psalm 19:9). And "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."(Prov. 9:10)
God, in the Old Testament was also called "the Fear of Isaac" (Gen. 31:42)
I agree with your point on the love of God. I just think others' experience in coming to God is as valid to them. If God has received them through a somewhat different aspect from ourselves, we ought to be ready to respect that.
Upon a background of wrathful judgment the message of love and mercy shines brighter often.
@suzianne saidWe are taught to fear fire at a young age, fear walking into the street due to cars, getting in cars with strangers. Fear isn't a bad thing, neither is pain it keeps us from truly damaging ourselves. Fearing God is simply acknowledging He is the One that no one can deliver us from if we act stupidly offending and sinning against Him by our actions towards Him or another one of us.
When I used the word "saved", I meant the salvation of Christ's sacrifice. He gave his life for us, who haven't earned it, as the pure Lamb of God, as a perfect expression of love. This love is not an expression of his wrath, and wrath is the punishment given to those beyond redemption. The threat of this wrath coming to us is not an inducement to seek his love, bu ...[text shortened]... us. This is not my God, and this is not what brought me to God. Love saves... wrath only punishes.
He gives us unmerited grace, mercy not merit for our salvation. This doesn't change the fact that it is all up to God, He will have mercy on who He will have mercy and that is the bottom line truth. He set it up for us to come to Him for grace, we need to ask, we need to show it to others, we need to give it others, but the justification all resides with God not on our earning it.
@kellyjay saidThe religious 'fear factor' that the likes of you and sonship preach is moral and psychological nonsense, though.
We are taught to fear fire at a young age, fear walking into the street due to cars, getting in cars with strangers. Fear isn't a bad thing, neither is pain it keeps us from truly damaging ourselves. Fearing God is simply acknowledging He is the One that no one can deliver us from if we act stupidly offending and sinning against Him by our actions towards Him or another one of us.
What coercive or deterrent effect can a threat have on non-believers? What coercive or deterrent effect did Dasa's threat that atheists and Christians would be reincarnated as cockroaches have on you and me? Yes: none. That's right.
What would be the moral purpose of torturing non-believers for eternity after they die if the non-believers still alive don't know about it.
Why would any non-Christian "fear" such farfetched and poorly thought-out threats?
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@fmf saidYou apparently don't understand, or more likely, pretend to misunderstand, who I was talking about.
This bit interests me [and well said the rest of it, by the way].
An atheist's non-belief is not caused by fear. One would have to believe the fearful thing exists before being able to fear it.
If a believer is "turned away out of fear" they must presumably believe the fearful thing exists, so what does being "turned away" mean? Loss of belief, I can understand... "but out of fear" I don't understand.
Hint: it's neither of the two groups you mention.
You've never been able to take my words at face value. You always apprehend them with your own false meaning.
@fmf saidAgain, you misunderstand who those threats are aimed at, as well as their "other purpose".
The religious 'fear factor' that the likes of you and sonship preach is moral and psychological nonsense, though.
What coercive or deterrent effect can a threat have on non-believers? What coercive or deterrent effect did Dasa's threat that atheists and Christians would be reincarnated as cockroaches have on you and me? Yes: none. That's right.
What would be the moral pur ...[text shortened]... know about it.
Why would any non-Christian "fear" such farfetched and poorly thought-out threats?
You've never listened to me very well, though.
@kellyjay saidStrangely enough it is the same functional fear that drives your Republican Party in America.
We are taught to fear fire at a young age, fear walking into the street due to cars, getting in cars with strangers. Fear isn't a bad thing, neither is pain it keeps us from truly damaging ourselves. Fearing God is simply acknowledging He is the One that no one can deliver us from if we act stupidly offending and sinning against Him by our actions towards Him or another one ...[text shortened]... others, we need to give it others, but the justification all resides with God not on our earning it.
This is not a mistake.
@suzianne saidYou have dodged the actual content of the post you were responding to.
You apparently don't understand, or more likely, pretend to misunderstand, who I was talking about.
Hint: it's neither of the two groups you mention.
You've never been able to take my words at face value. You always apprehend them with your own false meaning.