Four Kinds of Forgiveness

@sonship said
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

I am not ashamed that this verse is in my Bible.

Me neither.

I’m not ashamed of the scriptures describing multiheaded beasts either.

@divegeester

Me neither.

I’m not ashamed of the scriptures describing multiheaded beasts either.

You should not be.

I would be ashamed of thinking a multiheaded beast meant a pleasant team of serving deaconesses. That is taking the meaning of something symbolic as so obviously OPPOSITE in character as to what it implies.'

That I would be ashamed of changing the character of what is implied because what is implied is so hated by you.

The stretching and straining to include one's own concept in something the Bible is conveying which is obviously diametrically different from one's preferences, is shameful.

Everybody can see you are inserting your own ideas trying to make them God's idea.

@sonship said
@divegeester
You should not be.

I'm not, I thought I just said that...

@divegeester

I agree with you. Neither of us is ashamed of some unusual symbolic usage of word pictures.

We may have legitimate disagreement over how much of the word picture is literal and how much not literal.

We can argue over changing the overall character what seems to be being conveyed.

What is not easy to argue is to make the character opposite of what is apparently being conveyed.

A multihead beast out of the sea may be interpreted a number of ways. Biblically speaking we should go back into the Bible and see how such a picture was used before. That is our best guide.

Probably a multiheaded beast out of the sea in the end times doesn't stand for four pleasant gentle deaconesses singing barbershop quartets.

A lake of life where we are told the Devil, the false prophet, the antichrist go to to be tormented day and night forever and ever, probably many verses latter doesn't stand for non-existence as a punishment.

"Well, lets add a few billion people to make it unthinkable."

That apparently does something for you.
It doesn't change anything for me.

"Lets add a few billion more people screaming."

Doesn't do much to change what is being communicated to me. Maybe it does for you.

"Lets add a few billion people who are babies and retarded and still born and never heard of the New Testament and were good people and were turned off and away from Christianity by mean nuns and mean priests and add that that is all some Christians like to talk about and add that I love it and am blood thirsty and eager to see my enemies suffer and add that Jesus and His angels having nothing else to do but eat popcorn and giggling in delight at the whole horrible scene, and add, and add, and add and add and do all we can to make the prospect absolutely morally insane by human standards."

That does something to persuade you.
It doesn't have the same effect on me.
And it might be ADDING to God's word.

You might be adding your theological ideas to force the verse to mean more than what we are told about the revelation.

So I just take what is written and don't try to stoke up on it to alter or improve what is written. It simply says -

" And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

God told me -
Don't take away.
Don't add.
(Revelation 22:18,19) .

@sonship said
@divegeester
I would be ashamed of thinking a multiheaded beast meant a pleasant team of serving deaconesses. That is taking the meaning of something symbolic as so obviously OPPOSITE in character as to what it implies.'

KellyJay has stated unequivocally that everything in the book of Revelation is literal. You clearly don't agree with Kellyjay as here you are claiming the muddleheaded beasts which he says are literal, you say are symbolic.

Sonship how do you decide what parts of Revelation are literal and which are not?

Also, why should I be castigated for selecting parts that I believe are symbolic?

@sonship said
@divegeester

I agree with you. Neither of us is ashamed of some unusual symbolic usage of word pictures.

We may have legitimate disagreement over how much of the word picture is literal and how much not literal.

We can argue over changing the overall character what seems to be being conveyed.

What is not easy to argue is to make the character opposite of wha ...[text shortened]... :15) [/b]

God told me -
Don't take away.
Don't add.
(Revelation 22:18,19) .

Who has the key to Hades, Jesus or Satan?
Just a thought.... but the answer is part of my position on hell.

Revelation 1:18
"and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

1 Corinthians 15:54-57
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

Revelation 20:12-14
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

1) Jesus has the keys of Hades...

2) Death has no sting...or VICTORY!

3) Hell is thrown into the lake of fire

The stuff about eternal suffering of all the billions of people is what it would be like if Jesus didn't have the keys, wasn't victorious and hell wasn't abolished.


I know you won't agree, but there it is for you to mull over.

@divegeester

I know you won't agree, but there it is for you to mull over.

You have your freedom of conscience to view final judgment in those terms.

We've discussed it before and I have no further comment at the moment.

Don't feel the urge to prod or taunt me to argue. I'm ok with you having an annihilationists' viewpoint which I can't share.

@divegeester said
Who has the key to Hades, Jesus or Satan?
Just a thought.... but the answer is part of my position on hell.

Revelation 1:18
"and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

1 Corinthians 15:54-57
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on i ...[text shortened]... orious and hell wasn't abolished.


I know you won't agree, but there it is for you to mull over.

All of this, and you miss the big point of Rev. 20.

Revelation 20:14 KJV
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

The lake of fire is the second death. After being cast into it, one ceases to exist.

@Suzianne

All of this, and you miss the big point of Rev. 20.

Revelation 20:14 KJV
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

The lake of fire is the second death. After being cast into it, one ceases to exist.

Suzianne, you responding to me or Divegeester?

I think Divegeester already has that understanding. You talking to me?

I like the way you weigh in on the subject because you have never been belligerent about it as far as I can recall.

@sonship said
@divegeester
I'm ok with you having an annihilationists' viewpoint which I can't share.

I don’t have an annihilationist viewpoint.

But feel free to ignore the pints I made.

@suzianne said
All of this, and you miss the big point of Rev. 20.

Revelation 20:14 KJV
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

The lake of fire is the second death. After being cast into it, one ceases to exist.

It’s you that’s missing the point which is clearly explained in my post. Hell is cast into the lake.

There is no such thing as hell...
It has ceased to be...
It is an ex-hell...

@sonship said
@Suzianne

All of this, and you miss the big point of Rev. 20.

Revelation 20:14 KJV
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

The lake of fire is the second death. After being cast into it, one ceases to exist.

Suzianne, you responding to me or Divegeester?

I think Divegeester already has that understan ...[text shortened]... you weigh in on the subject because you have never been belligerent about it as far as I can recall.

Suzianne disagrees with you, but she vicariously argues with you through me, so that she doesn’t have to argue directly with you, in case SecondSon, who is also Josephw, steps in to remind her how she is an enemy of god and possibly even an ashole.

"Don't feed the troll."

@sonship said
"Don't feed the troll."

As I said, you are of course free to ignore my post above.

Here’s another “kind of forgiveness...” from Thread 179732

Hey I have some great news!
Ooh tell me!
Jesus loves you.
Who??
Jesus, Jesus in the Bible.
What’s the “Bible”?
It’s a book all about God.
Who wrote it?
Lots of people over thousands of years.
How do you know it’s true?
Because it says it is the truth and also my Pastor told me it’s true.
Hmm OK, maybe....tell me about this Jesus then...
Jesus is God’s son sent to die for us, to save us from our sins because even though we are sinners he still loves us so much
That’s nice, wow, cool guy, I guess
You “guess”?
Well who knows if it’s real or not!?
You have to believe...
I don’t think I can believe, I’m sorry but it all seems a bit far-fetched to me
If you don’t choose to believe you will go to hell and be burnt alive forever with all the other sinners who didn’t choose to believe.
Uncool! Who’s gonna do that!!?
Jesus.
But..........


If you want to reach the lost with the Gospel 2019 then drop this ridiculous doctrine of death and accept that it is error. At least then the good news may be morally coherent.
Thank you.