Spirituality
31 Oct 10
31 Oct 10
5 edits
The inspiration for this one is a Gramby Bobby post and vague memories of a long dead thread by FreakyKBH...
If ASDA (Walmart) somehow managed to drive out of business every grocery vendor in the UK, then decided to set the price of a loaf of 'Smartprice' bread at 30% of the average weekly earnings, throwing in, as a free gift, a 1% off voucher and glossy pamphlet about how they're "always saving me money", I'd tell them where they could shove their free gift and concretize my plans for emigrating abroad.
Similarly if some God decides that the price of doing things it doesn't like is death and eternal torture and throws in, as a sweetner, some bloke (allegedly it's son) to be later crucified (paying off some of the 'death'😉 I'd tell this God where it can shove it's free gift too.
Discuss.
31 Oct 10
Originally posted by AgergThe difference is that you never have to eat at McDonald's. You're free to refuse their "free gift" with no ill consequences. With god, however, there are allegedly disastrous ramifications from refusing his "free gift." In this case, he's not offering you a free gift...he's making you an offer you can't refuse.
The inspiration for this one is a Gramby Bobby post and vague memories of a long dead thread by FreakyKBH...
If McDonalds somehow managed to drive out of business every fast food joint in Manchester, then decided to charge £50.29 for a double cheeseburger, throwing in, as a free gift, a glossy pamphlet about how awesome McDonalds are I'd tell them where the ...[text shortened]... some of the 'death'😉 I'd tell this God where it can shove it's free gift too.
Discuss.
31 Oct 10
3 edits
Originally posted by rwingettYeah...trying to capture all the malign features of god's 'free gift' by way of a simple comparison is always going to be tricky...perhaps a large supermarket chain like ASDA (Walmart) driving out of business all other grocery vendors might have been better (I shall do this), but the main point I wanted to draw attention to (not to denigrate yours btw) is that the price set by this god isn't reasonable in the first place!
The difference is that you never have to eat at McDonald's. You're free to refuse their "free gift" with no ill consequences. With god, however, there are allegedly disastrous ramifications from refusing his "free gift." In this case, he's not offering you a free gift...he's making you an offer you can't refuse.
Of course, were one to accept God really is unique creator of the universe then yes, it can do whatever the hell it likes. That said however, I'm under no obligation to see it's behaviour as virtuous. Moreover, assuming omniscience I have no way to hide this from it.
31 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by AgergWhat's more their nominal "Lord", i.e., Jesus, did not endorse this concept of a "free gift" or even speak of it. The concept was introduced by others well after His death. Who's their daddy?
The inspiration for this one is a Gramby Bobby post and vague memories of a long dead thread by FreakyKBH...
If ASDA (Walmart) somehow managed to drive out of business every grocery vendor in the UK, then decided to set the price of a loaf of 'Smartprice' bread at 30% of the average weekly earnings, throwing in, as a free gift, a 1% off voucher and glossy p of the 'death'😉 I'd tell this God where it can shove it's free gift too.
Discuss.
31 Oct 10
Originally posted by AgergBut Walmart didn't create the market place, doesn't have universal sovereignty over currency, and if people would stop buying their crap Walmart would fade away.
The inspiration for this one is a Gramby Bobby post and vague memories of a long dead thread by FreakyKBH...
If ASDA (Walmart) somehow managed to drive out of business every grocery vendor in the UK, then decided to set the price of a loaf of 'Smartprice' bread at 30% of the average weekly earnings, throwing in, as a free gift, a 1% off voucher and glossy p ...[text shortened]... of the 'death'😉 I'd tell this God where it can shove it's free gift too.
Discuss.
Whereas, God owns it all, created it all, and can decide whether your bowels will keep working properly, and maybe you'll need Walmart to supply your needs for your incontinence.
Besides, Walmart isn't the source of the worlds ills and neither is God. After all Agerg, there is no God for you tell anything to!
So why all the vitriol? It isn't God that's your problem. So what really is your issue?
Go ahead, give it to me strait. You won't hurt my feelings. I'm pretty tough that way.
It's the Christians isn't it?
31 Oct 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOf course He didn't you goof. Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet. How can the "gift" be offered before the penalty for the sin debt had been paid?
What's more their nominal "Lord", i.e., Jesus, did not endorse this concept of a "free gift" or even speak of it. The concept was introduced by others well after His death. Who's their daddy?
By the way. How about your sins? Did God forgive you yet? Have you "stopped sinning" long enough to make God forgive you?
You have a lot of explaining to do about your own beliefs before you can be considered credible enough to criticize something you don't understand anyway.
Seriously. You harp on all day long about "stopping sinning" for salvation, but I have never heard you say anything about forgiveness.
31 Oct 10
3 edits
Originally posted by josephwMy issue josephw is that the much touted bedrock for all that is virtuous about your god, his supposed sending of Jesus to die for our sins is that which I find to be the most gruesome, twisted, and sadistic of all tales trumpeted by Christians.
But Walmart didn't create the market place, doesn't have universal sovereignty over currency, and if people would stop buying their crap Walmart would fade away.
Whereas, God owns it all, created it all, and can decide whether your bowels will keep working properly, and maybe you'll need Walmart to supply your needs for your incontinence.
Besides, Walm ou won't hurt my feelings. I'm pretty tough that way.
It's the Christians isn't it?
With a definition of sin being something that god doesn't like, setting the price of death is not good, it's not just, it's bloody well neanderthal. God supposedly requiring that his own son die to pay the toll *he* set is a travesty!
You say that god created the universe...ok, for arguments sake lets assume that. Does that automatically mean that what god does is good??? it certainly doesn't appear to be good!
Surely you and I use a similar metric for measuring goodness in the real world sense but we differ wildly when it comes to your god. As has been said in numerous other threads, if your god decided gouging babies' eyes out or commanding some person to sacrifice their son as a test of faith was good, then theists would find some way to argue that doing these things are the very definition of greatness and compassion!
To put it simply, the argument god created the universe therefore god can make the rules works only if you're willing to accept your god is a [insert word I think describes your particular god]...and no I don't have a problem with Christians josephw, nor do I have a problem with you; my problem is that this particular story is vaunted as the greatest thing done for humanity whilst I say that (supposing it true - for argument sake) it is the worst.
One last thing...if my thread here appears hostile then my apologies, but as I challenge that which is fundamental to your faith I don't expect to deliver my point 'loud enough' for it to register without being entirely blunt with you...moreover it's one of the few facets of Christianity which actuall rubs me up the wrong way! All the mention of talking snakes and arks etc... simply amuse me.
31 Oct 10
Originally posted by josephwEvidently the allure of "cheap salvation" is too strong for you to seriously consider the ramifications of your position. Some guys decide that they don't want to follow Jesus and you fall right in line. As Jesus said, "The gate is narrow".
Of course He didn't you goof. Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet. How can the "gift" be offered before the penalty for the sin debt had been paid?
By the way. How about your sins? Did God forgive you yet? Have you "stopped sinning" long enough to make God forgive you?
You have a lot of explaining to do about your own beliefs before you can be considere ...[text shortened]... ping sinning" for salvation, but I have never heard you say anything about forgiveness.
01 Nov 10
Originally posted by Agerg>>> Does that automatically mean that what god does is good??? it certainly doesn't appear to be good!
My issue josephw is that the much touted bedrock for all that is virtuous about your god, his supposed sending of Jesus to die for our sins is that which I find to be the most gruesome, twisted, and sadistic of all tales trumpeted by Christians.
With a definition of sin being something that god doesn't like, setting the price of death is not good, it's not ...[text shortened]... up the wrong way! All the mention of talking snakes and arks etc... simply amuse me.
Surely you and I use a similar metric for measuring goodness in the real world sense but we differ wildly when it comes to your god. <<<
I just posted this in another thread but it fits good here as well.~
>>>Originally posted by rwingett
It never ceases to amaze me how so many people are ready to give god all the credit for everything good that happens, but who never hold him accountable for all the bad.<<<
~ my reply
"All that could be held accountable for anything bad is it's ignorance of creating anything that pertains to that word, as man has sought out many inventions, to which all things of destruction are it's manifestation."
>>> As has been said in numerous other threads, if your god decided gouging babies' eyes out or commanding some person to sacrifice their son as a test of faith was good, then theists would find some way to argue that doing these things are the very definition of greatness and compassion!<<<
Before I had addressed this as well, that anywhere in the Bible that expresses "Judgement actions" is due to the "law on earth" made, therefore is WHY there is what is known as satan, one as lightning falleth from sky as Christ had beheld. He is the individual referred in the Bible "that inhabiteth eternity, and who is -called- Holy", however of course this is not the case, and is the deception plastered many different subtleties all around us (The Incredible Hulk, Bat Man comical characters portraying to stand for good, yet, definitely for judgement) that many are not aware of being under this cloud as all are as written.
02 Nov 10
Originally posted by Agerg"My issue josephw is that the much touted bedrock for all that is virtuous about your god, his supposed sending of Jesus to die for our sins is that which I find to be the most gruesome, twisted, and sadistic of all tales trumpeted by Christians."
My issue josephw is that the much touted bedrock for all that is virtuous about your god, his supposed sending of Jesus to die for our sins is that which I find to be the most gruesome, twisted, and sadistic of all tales trumpeted by Christians.
With a definition of sin being something that god doesn't like, setting the price of death is not good, it's not ...[text shortened]... up the wrong way! All the mention of talking snakes and arks etc... simply amuse me.
#1 It is not a "tale" trumpeted by Christians. It is what the Bible says.
#2 What do you find more gruesome, twisted, and sadistic? The supposed sending of Jesus to die for the gruesome, twisted, and sadistic acts of man, or the death of an innocent man for the forgiveness of those acts?
"With a definition of sin being something that god doesn't like, setting the price of death is not good, it's not just, it's bloody well neanderthal. God supposedly requiring that his own son die to pay the toll *he* set is a travesty!"
Do you "like" sin? Is it good to rape and murder babies? How about dousing someone with gasoline and setting them on fire? Which do you like best?
Why do you think God hates sin?
This is meaningless. You don't even believe there is a God. Do you think that a man will not give an account for the things he did after he dies?
I guess you had better hope you're right.
02 Nov 10
4 edits
Originally posted by josephw#1 It is not a "tale" trumpeted by Christians. It is what the Bible says.
[b]"My issue josephw is that the much touted bedrock for all that is virtuous about your god, his supposed sending of Jesus to die for our sins is that which I find to be the most gruesome, twisted, and sadistic of all tales trumpeted by Christians."
#1 It is not a "tale" trumpeted by Christians. It is what the Bible says.
#2 What do you find more t for the things he did after he dies?
I guess you had better hope you're right.[/b]
Coincedentally I neither believe nor have any significant reverence for your holy book.
#2 What do you find more gruesome, twisted, and sadistic? The supposed sending of Jesus to die for the gruesome, twisted, and sadistic acts of man, or the death of an innocent man for the forgiveness of those acts?
Well let's be clear ...It is claimed the very first disobedient act of man (which supposedly got us into the "trouble" we're in now) was Adam's naughty fruit munching exploits. Gruesome? No, Twisted? No, Sadistic? No. Moreover I'm finding it difficult to see both your alternatives as distinct (as opposed to subtle re-wordings of the same thing). Perhaps that's my bad, wanna try again?
Or in otherwords I don't understand your question.
Do you "like" sin? Is it good to rape and murder babies? How about dousing someone with gasoline and setting them on fire? Which do you like best?
Well again, we have to be sure what we mean by "sin". Do I think it good that people rape? No. But then again do I think it bad that people work on the sabbath day or fail to believe in deities? No!!!
Why do you think God hates sin?
Do you really want to hear my hypothetical conjecture on this???
This is meaningless. You don't even believe there is a God. Do you think that a man will not give an account for the things he did after he dies?
I guess you had better hope you're right.
On the evidence I have so far, and my present mindset I am quite sure man will not give such accounts as they'll be dead. If your god shafts me over for being wrong here then the failing is on his part, not mine.
(To explain this, I don't kick my computer when the programs I'm trying to write don't work - I figure out where *I've* made the mistake)
02 Nov 10
2 edits
Originally posted by tacoandlettuceAgerg? ^
>>> Does that automatically mean that what god does is good??? it certainly doesn't appear to be good!
Surely you and I use a similar metric for measuring goodness in the real world sense but we differ wildly when it comes to your god. <<<
I just posted this in another thread but it fits good here as well.~
>>>Originally posted by rwingett
judgement) that many are not aware of being under this cloud as all are as written.
post on 01 Nov '10 00:50 ? ^
02 Nov 10
Originally posted by tacoandlettucekthxbye
>>> Does that automatically mean that what god does is good??? it certainly doesn't appear to be good!
Surely you and I use a similar metric for measuring goodness in the real world sense but we differ wildly when it comes to your god. <<<
I just posted this in another thread but it fits good here as well.~
>>>Originally posted by rwingett
...[text shortened]... judgement) that many are not aware of being under this cloud as all are as written.