Free 'gifts'

Originally posted by duecer
I concede no such thing. You asked for an objective answer, such an answer does not exist. If you would like a subjective answer I would be happy to provide that.

You cannot defend the properties of your god without assuming they already hold (faith). This means you cannot validly impose upon skeptics the notion that your god's properties and behaviour are reasonable.

Originally posted by Agerg
You cannot defend the properties of your god without assuming they already hold (faith). This means you cannot validly impose upon skeptics the notion that your god's properties and behaviour are reasonable.

skepticism about faith merely makes my point that no answer can be objective

Originally posted by duecer
skepticism about faith merely makes my point that no answer can be objective

You had the option of making arguments of the form:
1) punishing those who don't accept the gift (see OP) is justified because of (insert argument independent of your faith in god/faith the bible is true/other appeals to logical fallacies)
2) punishing those who don't accept the gift (see OP) is justified because of (insert argument independent of your faith in god/faith the bible is true/other appeals to logical fallacies)
.
.
.
n) punishing those who don't accept the gift (see OP) is justified because of (insert argument independent of your faith in god/faith the bible is true/other appeals to logical fallacies)

You cannot do this.

Originally posted by Agerg
You had the option of making arguments of the form:
1) punishing those who don't accept the gift (see OP) is justified because of (insert argument independent of your faith in god/faith the bible is true/other appeals to logical fallacies)
2) punishing those who don't accept the gift (see OP) is justified because of (insert argument independent of your faith ...[text shortened]... ith in god/faith the bible is true/other appeals to logical fallacies)

You cannot do this.

if you re-read my posts in this thread you will see I have already answered it. I don't believe in punishment (at least not the way you do) I believe in spiritual life or spiritual death. If you accept the gift of life you live, if not you don't. No punishment, just death...don't worry you won't feel any pain, God is merciful.

Originally posted by duecer
if you re-read my posts in this thread you will see I have already answered it. I don't believe in punishment (at least not the way you do) I believe in spiritual life or spiritual death. If you accept the gift of life you live, if not you don't. No punishment, just death...don't worry you won't feel any pain, God is merciful.

don't worry you won't feel any pain, God is merciful.

I think a better description is that God is now merciful. I don't you think you can label a God who condemns people to death by stoning and burning, or in fact to death in anyway, as he does in the OT as merciful.

Originally posted by duecer
No punishment, just death...don't worry you won't feel any pain, God is merciful.

Call it "not punishment" if you like, but allowing death when you can give life is not "merciful".
But then I am talking about my understanding of life, you probably have a different one.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Call it "not punishment" if you like, but allowing death when you can give life is not "merciful".
But then I am talking about my understanding of life, you probably have a different one.

rejecting the gift of life when you can esily have it is mind numbingly ignorant.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]don't worry you won't feel any pain, God is merciful.

I think a better description is that God is now merciful. I don't you think you can label a God who condemns people to death by stoning and burning, or in fact to death in anyway, as he does in the OT as merciful.[/b]

many people call the bible the word of God, I often remind them that it is not the words of God, or better yet it is words about God. I agree the OT God often isn't portrayed as merciful. Reflecting on the creator requires us to admit what we know and what we don't know about God, the latter being a very large portion. It is difficult for many people of faith to admit that some portions of the text are heavily influenced by the prejudice of the writer. The stories are all true...from a particular point of view. Hermenuetically we need to exegate the truth as best we can. My reflections have lead me to the belief that God is indeed, and has always been, merciful.

Originally posted by duecer
many people call the bible the word of God, I often remind them that it is not the words of God, or better yet it is words about God. I agree the OT God often isn't portrayed as merciful. Reflecting on the creator requires us to admit what we know and what we don't know about God, the latter being a very large portion. It is difficult for many people of faith ...[text shortened]... . My reflections have lead me to the belief that God is indeed, and has always been, merciful.

The problem is that the only 'facts' we have about god is from the bible. The bible is the *only* source. And it is not always reliable.

Many christians has an image of what god is, and confirms this image with verses from the bible. If the find verses that is not according to their image, then they interprete these verse so it fits with their image, or dismiss it altogether.

When scientists work it is the all the way round. They form a theory from the observations. if observations doesn't fit the theory, they try to find explanations to this discrepancy, and if needed change the theory altogether. This makes them fine tuning the theories further and further. That's how BigBang-theory sprung.

No scientists belive anything only because Einstein told them that, or Narwin, or Newton, or even Dawking. They go and redo the experiments giving the result as they relied on noone. That's the way to eliminate big-mouths. Many claim that they have invented the perpetuum mobile, but if noone else can reconstruct the same thingy, noone believes in it. The cold fusion is an example of this.

So as long you only have anything more than the bible, you don't really know much. And that is okay, because it is not science, it is religion. And in religion, you can believe in anything you want. This is not the case in science.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
The problem is that the only 'facts' we have about god is from the bible. The bible is the *only* source. And it is not always reliable.

Many christians has an image of what god is, and confirms this image with verses from the bible. If the find verses that is not according to their image, then they interprete these verse so it fits with their image, o ...[text shortened]... n. And in religion, you can believe in anything you want. This is not the case in science.

the bible is decidedly NOT the only source. There have been many Christian and Hebrew mystics over the centuries as well as the apocryphal writings as well. I would also never so easily dismiss the witness of the average person.

Originally posted by duecer
many people call the bible the word of God, I often remind them that it is not the words of God, or better yet it is words about God. I agree the OT God often isn't portrayed as merciful. Reflecting on the creator requires us to admit what we know and what we don't know about God, the latter being a very large portion. It is difficult for many people of faith ...[text shortened]... . My reflections have lead me to the belief that God is indeed, and has always been, merciful.

This is the defintion of 'merciful' -

full of mercy; having, feeling, or showing mercy; compassionate; lenient; clement

I don't see how someone who condemned people to death by stoning and burning can fit into the description above. I'd be interested to know how you personally 'reflected' on marrying the two.

Also, the Iranian regime condemns people to death (well women anyway, who are stoned to death) for adultery, your God also condemned people to death for adultery. Would you say the Iranian regime is 'merciful'?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
This is the defintion of 'merciful' -

full of mercy; having, feeling, or showing mercy; compassionate; lenient; clement

I don't see how someone who condemned people to death by stoning and burning can fit into the description above. I'd be interested to know how you personally 'reflected' on marrying the two.

Also, the Iranian regime cond ...[text shortened]... condemned people to death for adultery. Would you say the Iranian regime is 'merciful'?

let he who is without sin cast the first stone...ahhh the sweet sounds of mercy*smiles*

Originally posted by duecer
if you re-read my posts in this thread you will see I have already answered it. I don't believe in punishment (at least not the way you do) I believe in spiritual life or spiritual death. If you accept the gift of life you live, if not you don't. No punishment, just death...don't worry you won't feel any pain, God is merciful.

As I've already said previously in this thread, given your god has potential to grant eternal life (and has set it up so we don't get it by default), and has monopoly over who gets eternal life and who doesn't, then failure to receive eternal life after death *is a punishment* for not believing.

Oh and the gift isn't spiritual life!...no one has walked up to me and said "hey buddy, got some free spiritual life here...want some?"

The gift is the crucifixion of Jesus arranged (supposedly) by your god to pay some ridiculous price levied by itself; and to limit the debt you owe this god (set arbitrarily by God) for some sin your 6000 year old ancester Adam accrued on your behalf, you have to convince yourself this is somehow a good thing and pledge your allegiance to God. 😕

Originally posted by duecer
let he who is without sin cast the first stone...ahhh the sweet sounds of mercy*smiles*

Sorry deucer, you've lost me.

You claimed your reflections have led you to the belief that God has always been merciful, yet the same God in the OT condemned people to death. Condemning people to death is surely the exact opposite of merciful?! How do you view the two as compatible?

And, if you think a God who condemns people to death for adultery is merciful, do you have the same view on the Iranian regime which carries out the said practice?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Sorry deucer, you've lost me.

You claimed your reflections have led you to the belief that God has always been merciful, yet the same God in the OT condemned people to death. Condemning people to death is surely the exact opposite of merciful?! How do you view the two as compatible?

And, if you think a God who condemns people to death for adultery ...[text shortened]... merciful, do you have the same view on the Iranian regime which carries out the said practice?

let he who is without sin cast the first stone...how hard is that to understand?