1. Standard memberknightmeister
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    02 Dec '06 15:41
    I keep hearing this argument that somehow free will can't exist because God is omnipotent and nothing happens without him initiating it.

    According to this argument the universe/existence is entirely deterministic ruling out any chance of true free will. Therefore we cannot have free will because everything can be traced back to God's initiation or omnipotent power.

    I don't get this myself and here's why...

    1) If God is truely ominpotent then he must be the Uncaused Cause , the foundation of everything that exists for whom no initiation is necessary. God does not rely on being determined by anything because there is nothing greater than him to initiate him. He has no beginning , he is eternal (ref-Christian Theology)

    2) It follows logically from 1) that there is at least one thing in existence that has real free will because God is not subject to determinism being omnipotent and Uncaused. (NB-The only other option to 2) is to have an infinite regress of caused causes that never ends which is mind boggling , or to say that the universe came out of nothing and has no cause or reason , but this would suggest that the universe itself is indeterminate and not necessarily governed by hard determinism , in either case God would not exist and not be omnipotent)

    3) If God has free will and is all powerful , why is it so impossible or hard for him to share that very free will with us?

    To me God's omnipotence is vital to have any chance to have free will in the universe but I know some of you Atheists think that God should be able to create real free will and also prevent any of us from going astray at the same time , which to me is logically absurd. So I guess it shouldn't suprise me if you also have funny ideas about omnipotence as well
  2. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    02 Dec '06 16:08
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I keep hearing this argument that somehow free will can't exist because God is omnipotent and nothing happens without him initiating it.

    According to this argument the universe/existence is entirely deterministic ruling out any chance of true free will. Therefore we cannot have free will because everything can be traced back to God's initiation or ...[text shortened]... So I guess it shouldn't suprise me if you also have funny ideas about omnipotence as well
    Oh my God. Why would somebody have spent 10% of their rec budget on this nonsense?
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    02 Dec '06 17:18
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I keep hearing this argument that somehow free will can't exist because God is omnipotent and nothing happens without him initiating it.

    According to this argument the universe/existence is entirely deterministic ruling out any chance of true free will. Therefore we cannot have free will because everything can be traced back to God's initiation or ...[text shortened]... So I guess it shouldn't suprise me if you also have funny ideas about omnipotence as well
    If you forget the God equation and look to post-structural discourse, we haven't got free will either as we're objectifed as subjects through language (Lacan), representation and metaphysics (Derrida), and power and knowledge (Foucault). "We have no free-will, we are as much automaton as mind" (Pascal).
  4. Standard memberknightmeister
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    02 Dec '06 18:53
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Oh my God. Why would somebody have spent 10% of their rec budget on this nonsense?
    What on earth is a "rec budget" and what point are you making?
  5. Standard memberknightmeister
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    02 Dec '06 18:54
    Originally posted by Serendipity
    If you forget the God equation and look to post-structural discourse, we haven't got free will either as we're objectifed as subjects through language (Lacan), representation and metaphysics (Derrida), and power and knowledge (Foucault). "We have no free-will, we are as much automaton as mind" (Pascal).
    Philosobabble!
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    03 Dec '06 12:51
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Philosobabble!
    What religion, or post-structuralism 🙂
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    03 Dec '06 13:051 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Philosobabble!
    You disengage from an engagement that negates your beliefs. You should read more and speak less..
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Dec '06 15:06
    Originally posted by Vladamir no1
    You disengage from an engagement that negates your beliefs. You should read more and speak less..
    Maybe if he spoke English I'd have a chance of engaging with him.
  9. Standard membertelerion
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    03 Dec '06 15:26
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I keep hearing this argument that somehow free will can't exist because God is omnipotent and nothing happens without him initiating it.

    According to this argument the universe/existence is entirely deterministic ruling out any chance of true free will. Therefore we cannot have free will because everything can be traced back to God's initiation or ...[text shortened]... So I guess it shouldn't suprise me if you also have funny ideas about omnipotence as well
    😴
  10. Donationrwingett
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    03 Dec '06 16:38
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I keep hearing this argument that somehow free will can't exist because God is omnipotent and nothing happens without him initiating it.

    According to this argument the universe/existence is entirely deterministic ruling out any chance of true free will. Therefore we cannot have free will because everything can be traced back to God's initiation or ...[text shortened]... So I guess it shouldn't suprise me if you also have funny ideas about omnipotence as well
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

    Predestination in the Bible

    Some Biblical verses often used as sources for Christian beliefs in predestination are below.

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, [...]" (Eph. 1:3-5, NASB)

    "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Rom. 8:28-30, NASB)

    "[...] but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; [...]" (1Cr. 2:7, NASB)

    "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Act. 4:27-28, NASB)

    "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Eph. 2:4-9, NASB)

    "[...] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, [...]" (2Ti. 1:9, NASB)

    Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;

    And in Your book were all written
    The days that were ordained for me,
    When as yet there was not one of them. (Psa. 139:16, NASB)

    "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. [verse 17 omitted] So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." (Rom. 9:16-18, NASB)
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
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    04 Dec '06 18:00
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

    Predestination in the Bible

    Some Biblical verses often used as sources for Christian beliefs in predestination are below.

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, [...]" (Eph. 1:3-5, NASB)

    ABOVE POSTED BY RWINGETT

    I presume that you think these are some kind of problem issue for christians so I had better explain them for you..

    This first quote is referring to God's predestined plan to send Jesus into the world so that we can be "adopted" as sons of God. The "us" he is referring to is probably mankind. There is no doubt that God predestined and pre-determined that Jesus would come , but this does not mean that he pre-destines everything. He pre-destines us all to be adopted by Jesus and holy and blameless before him. This is his plan for mankind set in place in all eternity before the world began. However , this is different from saying that he then pre-destines WHO is going to take up that adoption. Infact the agony of hell is that you have refused God's predestined plan to join him in bliss and joy , the only purpose for which you are created. This passage refers to God's pre-destined plan for the redemption of mankind but does not logically imply that everyone will take him up on his plan or that free will is not still part of that process.

    In short , I don't have a problem with God predetermining some things and not others. I think this is entirely consistent with an omnipotent God who allows some things to be open to choice and not others.He makes choices about what to pre determine and what not to. It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario. Or do you think that by showing God predestines some things you have proved something? In any case a God who didn't have a pre destined plan for our redemption would be pretty negligent.
  12. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    04 Dec '06 18:14
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I keep hearing this argument that somehow free will can't exist because God is omnipotent and nothing happens without him initiating it.

    According to this argument the universe/existence is entirely deterministic ruling out any chance of true free will. Therefore we cannot have free will because everything can be traced back to God's initiation or ...[text shortened]... So I guess it shouldn't suprise me if you also have funny ideas about omnipotence as well
    You conveniently left out omniscience.
  13. Standard memberknightmeister
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    04 Dec '06 18:44
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    You conveniently left out omniscience.
    I did this deliberately to tackle one thing at a time because I am doing omniscience + omnipotence on the "am I right in saying this" post . But if you want to talk about how God is omnisicient and therefore all our actions are predetermined and leave out the fact that God is eternal and outside time then feel free. Bring it on! 😴
  14. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    05 Dec '06 05:05
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I did this deliberately to tackle one thing at a time because I am doing omniscience + omnipotence on the "am I right in saying this" post . But if you want to talk about how God is omnisicient and therefore all our actions are predetermined and leave out the fact that God is eternal and outside time then feel free. Bring it on! 😴
    It is only in the combination of omnipotence and omniscience that the free will argument holds any interest. That's why I was surprised that you'd even bother considering them seperately. If God lacked either O, there would be no problem with free will.

    I'm not terribly interested in hearing arguments about God being outside time. That's such a nebulous concept that it's meaningless. Even if somehow he is, there still must be a part of him that steps into our time and interacts with us. Thus, the part of him outside of time can simply be discarded, and we can concentrate on the part of him that is actually capable of interaction with us.
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
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    05 Dec '06 09:31
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    It is only in the combination of omnipotence and omniscience that the free will argument holds any interest. That's why I was surprised that you'd even bother considering them seperately. If God lacked either O, there would be no problem with free will.

    I'm not terribly interested in hearing arguments about God being outside time. That's such a neb ...[text shortened]... and we can concentrate on the part of him that is actually capable of interaction with us.
    I'm curious when you say you are "not really interested in hearing arguments about God being outside of time" ? What on earth do you think Christians believe? How can God be omnipotent if he is restricted by time. That would mean that time would have to exist before God could do anything. As Einstein pointed out , time is merely another dimension of space , plain and simple. It's no big deal for God to be beyond or outside of time. Time is a dimension of the universe so if God can't be outside time then he can't be outside the universe either he would have to be within it. Not very omnipotent!

    Also , if God enters into time then why do you have to discard the part of him outside of time? Are you saying he could not be in time and outside time all at the same time . Again not very omnipotent of him.

    What you are doing is the equivalent of asking me to explain how a computer works but then saying " but I don't want to hear all that stuff about hard drives , chips , binary/digital codes and motherboards". 🙄
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