free will

Originally posted by Phil Hill
Yet determinism requires nothing more than determined probabilities. Determinism does not mean exact predictions. Is that what you think it means?

You have read of the EPR experiments, yes?

Originally posted by SwissGambit

Did you forget to post?

Originally posted by Phil Hill
Yet determinism requires nothing more than determined probabilities. Determinism does not mean exact predictions. Is that what you think it means?

What it means depends on context. The Wikipedia page referenced, assumes the default meaning to be exact predictions. It then mentions other types of determinism of which probabilities rather than exact predictions is only one.
So it seems reasonable that when one says 'determinism' that they either mean 'exact predictions' or they should specify which determinism they are referring to.
Certainly determinism can mean 'exact predictions'.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What it means depends on context. The Wikipedia page referenced, assumes the default meaning to be exact predictions. It then mentions other types of determinism of which probabilities rather than exact predictions is only one.
So it seems reasonable that when one says 'determinism' that they either mean 'exact predictions' or they should specify which d ...[text shortened]... rminism they are referring to.
Certainly determinism [b]can mean 'exact predictions'.[/b]

This is a quote from the page that you either missed or are purposely ignoring.

Determinism rarely requires that perfect prediction be practically possible – only prediction in theory.

Originally posted by Phil Hill
This is a quote from the page that you either missed or are purposely ignoring.

[b]Determinism rarely requires that perfect prediction be practically possible – only prediction in theory.[/b]

I am not purposely ignoring it. It is simply not relevant.
It certainly does not support your claim:

Yet determinism requires nothing more than determined probabilities. Determinism does not mean exact predictions.

Whether or not it is possible in practice to predict the future is an interesting subject but is not something that has been discussed so far.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
"As Stephen Hawking explains, the result is not traditional determinism, but rather determined probabilities."

Thanks for the link.

Oh, and the people following along think twhitehead is owning you. Just so you know. 🙂

the people who don't understand will think so. you obviously fall into that category.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not purposely ignoring it. It is simply not relevant.
It certainly does not support your claim:

Yet determinism requires nothing more than determined probabilities. Determinism does not mean exact predictions.

Whether or not it is possible in practice to predict the future is an interesting subject but is not something that has been discussed so far.

Your claim that Wikipedia assumes perfect predictability is wrong. As far as your assertion that that quote does not support my argument, I just decided that agruing with someone who refuses to engage their brain is a fruitless pursuit and I can do that with religious fundamentalists. I don't need a pseudo-intellectual like yourself. Have a nice day 🙂

Originally posted by Phil Hill
Your claim that Wikipedia assumes perfect predictability is wrong.

I am not really sure what your issue is here.
The Wikipedia article starts off with a definition:

Determinism is a philosophy stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen.

So clearly it is saying the default definition for 'Determinism', is one in which the future is exactly predetermined.
Now whether or not it is possible to actually calculate that future is not specified. So if that is what you are getting at, then I have no problem, and your quote is relevant. However that would contradict your earlier statement that was being responded to:

Yet determinism requires nothing more than determined probabilities.

which is clearly a different definition of determinism than the one I quote above from Wikipedia - and for which your quote is irrelevant.
This is really not that hard, even for pseudo-intellectuals like myself. I am surprised how much you and VoidSpirit are tying yourselves in knots trying not to admit that you got it wrong.

So just to clarify, when you said:

Determinism does not mean exact predictions.

Did you mean "determinism does not necessarily mean that predictions may not be possible in practice even though the future is exactly predetermined". Or did you mean "Determinism does not mean that the future is exactly predetermined but only determined probabilities." (as essentially stated in the previous sentence)?
If you meant the latter then clearly you were wrong as per definition from Wikipedia.